Should a Religion have Private, Personal, Sacred Practices?

[Cow Poke]

P.S. For more info on whether early Christianity had esoteric teachings, and whether doing so is against God's will, see Bickmore's article

http://www.fairlds.org/authors/bickm...ity/the-temple

None of this changes the fact that the Mormon Church is probably the most "managed image" institution on the planet. Multiple versions of important events, always selecting the most "suitable" one -- and, sure, EVERYBODY uses PR to "put their best foot forward", but you guys are the masters of deception.

• A shootout with a mob consisting AT LEAST IN PART of your angry excommunicated members becomes "our beloved martyr sealing his testimony with his blood"...
• An alleged prophet with his head stuffed in a hat becomes a fine looking young man sitting at a table examining gold plates with a scribe...
• The destruction of a printing press in an attempt to stifle publication of grievances against your "prophet" becomes, somehow, comparable to Christ cleansing the Temple...
• Smith gets a "command from God" to instigate polygamy, Emma objects, Smith gets a "prophecy" that she will be destroyed if she doesn't go along with it, and this supposedly is because God needed help "raising up seed", yet Smith supposedly "raised up NO seed" in this manner, then God changed his mind and "commanded this to stop", even though, in your own writings, God had ALREADY declared this deplorable....
• The troubles at Far West are characterized purely as "those poor Mormons getting mistreated by outsiders, when, IN FACT, MUCH of the trouble at Far West was a result of your OWN PEOPLE getting hacked off about being cheated in the Kirtland Banking SCHEME that your "prophet" dreamed up, along with other disappointment with Smith
• Smith bringing on seedy men - even an ABORTIONIST - with slimy reputations to "help him administrate" your Church, and using as an excuse, a "shortage of good men" because Smith had sent all the "apostles" on missions all at the same time, during which some of them complain that he proposed to their WIVES...
• Smith complaining that he doesn't have time to "take care of the spirituality" because he is burdened with the "temporality" because, apparently, he was FORCED to be the Lt. General, the Grand Poobah of the local Masonic Lodge, the Mayor of the town, the proprietor of a hotel, the owner of a bar, the publisher of the local paper, and, OH YEAH, he had sent his BEST MEN on MISSION....
• Smith teaching that alcohol is bad, yet his WIFE has to shame him into closing down the BAR in his hotel because even SHE knew that wasn't fitting for "the head of a religious body" (The SAME wife who knew that the polygamy thing was a bad idea), and STILL, Smith sees a reason to have alcohol brought to the jail prior to his shootout....

And THAT's just a PARTIAL LIST!

You guys are CONSTANTLY having to try to defend this man, and part of your "defense" is "well, other guys did it too", or "that's what was happening in Smith's day..." (belief in Quakers on the moon, drinking, debauchery, politics... ) and you accuse US of following "the teachings of man"?

MEANWHILE, there's Christ, about whom the OFFICIAL PROSECUTION declares....

(Luke 23:4 KJV) Then said Pilate to the chief priests and to the people, I find no fault in this man.

wow - I'll stick with Christ, I have no need of Smith.

[OtherCheek]

None of this changes the fact that the Mormon Church is probably the most "managed image" institution on the planet. Multiple versions of important events, always selecting the most "suitable" one -- and, sure, EVERYBODY uses PR to "put their best foot forward", but you guys are the masters of deception.

Interesting, then, how the Church goes to great effort to publish and put forth these multiple sources and multiple versions and accounts. Can you explain the conspiracy behind that?

[One Bad Pig]

Interesting, then, how the Church goes to great effort to publish and put forth these multiple sources and multiple versions and accounts. Can you explain the conspiracy behind that?

There's no conspiracy. The LDS organization puts forth whatever version best suits the needs of the moment, with little regard for internal consistency.

[Cow Poke]

Interesting, then, how the Church goes to great effort to publish and put forth these multiple sources and multiple versions and accounts. Can you explain the conspiracy behind that?

Stupidity? Lack of integrity? Does there HAVE to be a conspiracy, OC?

It amazes me that, somehow, you think your Church's accurate (to whatever extent they are accurate) reporting of multiple conflicting accounts is a VIRTUE!

My granddaughter would say... "That's just MESSED UP!"

[Cow Poke]

OC... say that your daughter skipped school one day, and provided the school with a note that said she was sick, and couldn't come to school.

The teacher showed you the note.
Her facebook page, however, says she stayed at a friend's house.
When you confront her, she tells you "we had a flat tire, and by the time we found a replacement, it would have been too late...."

So you confront her with the fact that there are multiple conflicting accounts, and she finally admits, reluctantly, that the "facebook account" is the accurate one.
THEN she says to you -- "but I wasn't HIDING anything -- you are fully aware of the note to my teacher, and you SAW my facebook page, and I TOLD you my version... WHERE'S THE CONSPIRACY?"

Would you calmly say to her, "Ah, that's ok, sweetie, our Church does the same thing -- multiple conflicting records, but they're ALL PUBLIC!"

Your Church has multiple CONFLICTING accounts of SO MANY of your REALLY IMPORTANT "moments in history", OC. How much intelligence does it take to realize that "at least we make them all public" is not a very convincing or useful argument?

[Sparko]

I think we can get an "idea" as to what the secret teachings were about, even if the specific teachings themselves have been kept from us. Just as with the case of missile launch codes. If Jesus taught His inner circle some of the mysteries of the kingdom of God, then that is what the teachings were about.

Jesus taught the Apostles secret missile launch codes?

Nibley cites Clement's claim that Jesus ordered the apostles to publicly preach no doctrine beyond baptism "for the time being." Sounds like secret teachings existed in Christianity. Nibley cites Acts 1:3, where Jesus taught His inner circle about the kingdom of God and cites Schmidt, in Gesprache Jesu, 304-36 in saying that "It was universally believed in the early church that the last and highest revelations were those given by the Lord after his resurrection, and that these dealt with the kingdom of God."

Nibley also notes that " Some insist that because we know the subject of the 40 days' discourse, we know its content--which is far from being the case" and cites F.F. Bruce's Commentary on the Book of Acts as one supporting source.

Wow so Nibley was there to hear the secret teaching about the launch codes. Amazing.

Doya think that is how Jesus is gonna return for Armageddon? By using the launch codes to blow up all the nukes and start WW3?

[Cow Poke]

Jesus taught the Apostles secret missile launch codes?

It's OK! The codes were changed last week, and as soon as Obama is out of office, they'll be changed again.

[Sparko]

It's OK! The codes were changed last week, and as soon as Obama is out of office, they'll be changed again.

Just as long as nobody lets the planetary shield code be known to be • Edited by a Moderator •

[Cow Poke]

Just as long as nobody lets the planetary shield code be known to be • Edited by a Moderator •

You JACKWAGON!!!!! I just SAVED your butt!

[Sparko]

It's the same combination as my luggage!

[nrajeff]

Jesus taught the Apostles secret missile launch codes?



Wow so Nibley was there to hear the secret teaching about the launch codes. Amazing.

Doya think that is how Jesus is gonna return for Armageddon? By using the launch codes to blow up all the nukes and start WW3?

Ass

[nrajeff]

None of this changes the fact that the Mormon Church is probably the most "managed image" institution on the planet. Multiple versions of important events, always selecting the most "suitable" one -- and, sure, EVERYBODY uses PR to "put their best foot forward", but you guys are the masters of deception.

• A shootout with a mob consisting AT LEAST IN PART of your angry excommunicated members becomes "our beloved martyr sealing his testimony with his blood"...
• An alleged prophet with his head stuffed in a hat becomes a fine looking young man sitting at a table examining gold plates with a scribe...
• The destruction of a printing press in an attempt to stifle publication of grievances against your "prophet" becomes, somehow, comparable to Christ cleansing the Temple...
• Smith gets a "command from God" to instigate polygamy, Emma objects, Smith gets a "prophecy" that she will be destroyed if she doesn't go along with it, and this supposedly is because God needed help "raising up seed", yet Smith supposedly "raised up NO seed" in this manner, then God changed his mind and "commanded this to stop", even though, in your own writings, God had ALREADY declared this deplorable....
• The troubles at Far West are characterized purely as "those poor Mormons getting mistreated by outsiders, when, IN FACT, MUCH of the trouble at Far West was a result of your OWN PEOPLE getting hacked off about being cheated in the Kirtland Banking SCHEME that your "prophet" dreamed up, along with other disappointment with Smith
• Smith bringing on seedy men - even an ABORTIONIST - with slimy reputations to "help him administrate" your Church, and using as an excuse, a "shortage of good men" because Smith had sent all the "apostles" on missions all at the same time, during which some of them complain that he proposed to their WIVES...
• Smith complaining that he doesn't have time to "take care of the spirituality" because he is burdened with the "temporality" because, apparently, he was FORCED to be the Lt. General, the Grand Poobah of the local Masonic Lodge, the Mayor of the town, the proprietor of a hotel, the owner of a bar, the publisher of the local paper, and, OH YEAH, he had sent his BEST MEN on MISSION....
• Smith teaching that alcohol is bad, yet his WIFE has to shame him into closing down the BAR in his hotel because even SHE knew that wasn't fitting for "the head of a religious body" (The SAME wife who knew that the polygamy thing was a bad idea), and STILL, Smith sees a reason to have alcohol brought to the jail prior to his shootout....

And THAT's just a PARTIAL LIST!

You guys are CONSTANTLY having to try to defend this man, and part of your "defense" is "well, other guys did it too", or "that's what was happening in Smith's day..." (belief in Quakers on the moon, drinking, debauchery, politics... ) and you accuse US of following "the teachings of man"?

MEANWHILE, there's Christ, about whom the OFFICIAL PROSECUTION declares....

(Luke 23:4 KJV) Then said Pilate to the chief priests and to the people, I find no fault in this man.

wow - I'll stick with Christ, I have no need of Smith.

What percentage of that long-winded screed was relevant to the topic?

[nrajeff]

This cite is not correct. It's not even formatted correctly. Contra Celsus Book VI Chapter 18 says no such thing. Try again.

I will look into that. Thanks. One thing I have learned about Nibley's citations is that he sometimes used and cited the original-language source materials (he could read and translate from several foreign languages) and the text sometimes doesn't correspond to the same page numbers that one finds in the English translations of those documents.

[OtherCheek]

Ass

When Sparko loses a point, he get's silly like this and turns to irrelevant gibberish and nonsense about launch codes, instead of coherent and thoughtful dialog about the topic. It's his way of diverting attention, I think.

[Sparko]

When Sparko loses a point, he get's silly like this and turns to irrelevant gibberish and nonsense instead of coherent and thoughtful dialog. It's his way of diverting attention, I think.

It's my way of pointing out that you guys are full of crap. Jeff's argument was totally off the wall. Arguing that something that we can't know about was somehow relevant to the discussion about LDS secret temple rituals? really?