God of the Old Testament/New Testament

[OtherCheek]

As redefined by Mormons you mean...

I think there are far more than 1 attempt to explain the Trinity. Probably hundreds. And they are unique.

[Bill the Cat]

I think there are far more than 1 attempt to explain the Trinity. Probably hundreds. And they are unique.

Please list 10.

[OtherCheek]

So Jesus was the God of the NT too and he prayed to himself and called himself "Father?"

The Father of Jesus didn't suddenly disappear as the N.T. rolled around. Jesus still refers to himself as the Son and speaks of His Father today.

Who was speaking when Jesus was baptized and said from Heaven, "This is my beloved Son..."?

The Father of Jesus.

Just how many times is the phrase "God the Father" used in the NT anyway?

Using that exact phrase, same number of times as in the BoM. 13 in the KJV.

If you LDS reject the Trinity, you are left with two different Gods in the Old and New Testaments.

If we LDS believe that Jesus Christ is the God of Israel then and now, who was commonly known as "Jehovah" in the Old Testament, but is now commonly known by the name "Jesus Christ" (Do you have any idea of the number of names he has), then how can YOUR contention be valid?

[Sparko]

The Father of Jesus didn't suddenly disappear as the N.T. rolled around. Jesus still refers to himself as the Son and speaks of His Father today.


The Father of Jesus.

Using that exact phrase, same number of times as in the BoM. 13 in the KJV.


If we LDS believe that Jesus Christ is the God of Israel then and now, who was commonly known as "Jehovah" in the Old Testament, but is now commonly known by the name "Jesus Christ" (Do you have any idea of the number of names he has), then how can YOUR contention be valid?

so no refutation then? The Father is God of the NT then? And Jehovah was God of the OT?

[OtherCheek]

so no refutation then? The Father is God of the NT then? And Jehovah was God of the OT?

Explain you conclusion in light of what I have already stated multiple times. We don't seem to be making a connection in our communicating.

[Sparko]

Explain you conclusion in light of what I have already stated multiple times. We don't seem to be making a connection in our communicating.

OK, if Jesus and the Father are not the SAME God, then they must be different Gods. Either Jesus/Jehovah was God in both the Old and New Testaments, in which case the Father is not God. Or you have two different Gods in the Old and New Testament. Jesus clearly calls the Father God in the NT and even tells the Jews that the Father is THEIR God too and that the Temple belongs to the Father. So if the trinity is false, then you have two different Gods, or Jesus never was Jehovah but the Father was. The Jews call Jehovah their God and yet Jesus tells them that the Father is their God.

So if LDS theology is correct you have these choices:

1. Jesus is Jehovah and is the only God in the old and new testament.
2. The Father is Jehovah and is the only God in the old and new testament.
3. Jesus is the God in the old testament and the Father is the god in the new testament.

[OtherCheek]

OK, if Jesus and the Father are not the SAME God, then they must be different Gods.

They are distinct and separate Beings each having their own identity and essence about them, united in purpose, intent, love, and direction. But I wouldn't go beyond that.

Either Jesus/Jehovah was God in both the Old and New Testaments, in which case the Father is not God.

Why must this be so? What rule says that the God of Israel cannot have a Father?

Or you have two different Gods in the Old and New Testament.

They are distinct and separate Beings each having their own identity and essence about them, united in purpose, intent, love, and direction, etc. But I wouldn't go beyond that.

Jesus clearly calls the Father God in the NT and even tells the Jews that the Father is THEIR God too and that the Temple belongs to the Father. So if the trinity is false, then you have two different Gods,

They are distinct and separate Beings each having their own identity and essence about them, united in purpose, intent, love, and direction. But I wouldn't go beyond that. What rule says that the God of Israel cannot have a Father?

or Jesus never was Jehovah but the Father was. The Jews call Jehovah their God and yet Jesus tells them that the Father is their God.

Do you know how Jesus is the Father, in LDS theology? It is because he Created the earth, and more importantly we can be spiritually reborn, born again under his name--making us his children.

So if LDS theology is correct you have these choices:
1. Jesus is Jehovah and is the only God in the old and new testament.
2. The Father is Jehovah and is the only God in the old and new testament.
3. Jesus is the God in the old testament and the Father is the god in the new testament.

4. Jesus is the God of Israel, and he has always had a Father. Jesus Christ and His Father are distinct and separate Beings each having their own identity and essence about them, united in purpose, intent, love, direction, work, and every way imaginable except being conjoined in essence--according to the orthodox Christian definition of essence.

I choose 4

[Bill the Cat]

What rule says that the God of Israel cannot have a Father?

Isaiah 44:6 and 44:8

[Sparko]

They are distinct and separate Beings each having their own identity and essence about them, united in purpose, intent, love, and direction. But I wouldn't go beyond that.
Why must this be so? What rule says that the God of Israel cannot have a Father?

They are distinct and separate Beings each having their own identity and essence about them, united in purpose, intent, love, and direction, etc. But I wouldn't go beyond that.

They are distinct and separate Beings each having their own identity and essence about them, united in purpose, intent, love, and direction. But I wouldn't go beyond that. What rule says that the God of Israel cannot have a Father?

Do you know how Jesus is the Father, in LDS theology? It is because he Created the earth, and more importantly we can be spiritually reborn, born again under his name--making us his children.


4. Jesus is the God of Israel, and he has always had a Father. Jesus Christ and His Father are distinct and separate Beings each having their own identity and essence about them, united in purpose, intent, love, direction, work, and every way imaginable except being conjoined in essence--according to the orthodox Christian definition of essence.

I choose 4

You can't choose 4 because Jehovah said that there were no gods before him, besides him, or after him. So if you choose 4, then you are calling Jehovah a liar.

If the Father was God in the old testament, then Jesus wasn't Jehovah, the Father was. if Jesus was Jehovah then the Father was not god in the old testament. It's either that or Jehovah is a liar.

...OR God is a triune being.

[OtherCheek]

You can't choose 4 because Jehovah said that there were no gods before him, besides him, or after him. So if you choose 4, then you are calling Jehovah a liar.

No SAVIOR other than Him.

This is completely consistent with LDS doctrine. "There is NO OTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN whereby man can be saved..." That means NO OTHER. That message is probably repeated more in the BoM than it is in the Bible.

[Cow Poke]

No SAVIOR other than Him.

This is completely consistent with LDS doctrine. "There is NO OTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN whereby man can be saved..." That means NO OTHER. That message is probably repeated more in the BoM than it is in the Bible.

Do you believe you can enter the BEST PART of Heaven (as you understand that to be) without acknowledging Joseph Smith?

[OtherCheek]

Isaiah 44:6 and 44:8

Words spoken to Israel who was worshiping idols.

There is only ONE Savior and Redeemer and Messiah and Deliverer and Lamb of God and Advocate and Mediator period. And He happens to be the God of Israel--Jesus Christ. The Book of Mormon probably makes this point more often than the Bible does.

[Sparko]

No SAVIOR other than Him.

This is completely consistent with LDS doctrine. "There is NO OTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN whereby man can be saved..." That means NO OTHER. That message is probably repeated more in the BoM than it is in the Bible.

and NO God besides him, OC.


"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me" (Isaiah 43:10).

Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God. 7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and lay out before me what has happened since I established my ancient people, and what is yet to come-- yes, let him foretell what will come. 8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."*

Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."

Deut 32:39 “See now that I myself am he! There is no god besides me."

[OtherCheek]

Do you believe you can enter the BEST PART of Heaven (as you understand that to be) without acknowledging Joseph Smith?

That is Exaltation and Eternal Life in the Celestial Kingdom, where husband and wife have been sealed together for time and eternity and are able to produce offspring. Do you know of any prophet who taught that besides Joseph Smith? (Somewhere in that question of mine is the answer "NO" to your question.)

But why should any of that be of concern to you right now? The Bible doesn't explicitly teach the doctrine of eternal marriage and so it shouldn't be any concern of yours.

By the way, I don't think any of the House of Israel can get to the highest order of heaven either without acknowledging Abraham and the covenants given to him as pertaining to a numberless posterity, as numberless as the stars or the sands of the sea. The highest order of heaven is only for those who will accept and live the laws pertaining to that kingdom.

[OtherCheek]

and NO God besides him, OC.


"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me" (Isaiah 43:10).

Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God. 7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and lay out before me what has happened since I established my ancient people, and what is yet to come-- yes, let him foretell what will come. 8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."*

Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."

Deut 32:39 “See now that I myself am he! There is no god besides me."

Still not as many references as I can find in the BoM supporting the same idea.