How Old Is The Earth, the Universe and our species?

[Wally]

Bottom line is, you have no confirmed date from the Bible, just a guess from fallible men.

And Jorge is pretty close to the top of the Fallibility Scale.

At least he's really good at something.

[headheart]

If that's true, then it begs the question; “why is God such a deceitful creator?”
Because all the evidence points to a much older (by several orders of magnitude) age.
Even as an atheist, I don’t think an omnipotent God would be that dishonest.

That's exactly what I struggled with when it first dawned on me that I had a problem with my YEC position. Later on I discovered that it's not even a position that is held by Christians who are serious about Biology, Physics and Science. It's generally something that is motivated by a low level pseudo-scientific crowd who just want in on the discussion for one or other ulterior motive.
I still think that once one gets the Christian sacred texts in their right place in any discussion about the age of the earth, universe and hominidae it'll be okay as long those who are holding that view and those who are out-and-out anti-YEC and ID (or anti-Christian, or visa versa anti-Athiest, Darwin and Evolution) doesn't have to deal with any BIBLE BEATERS!!! or ATHEIST BEATERS!!! or CHRISTIAN BEATERS!!!! If that happens then I think that person shouldn't be in a discussion like this.
I mean I've put my thoughts about the CST on hold for now and not because I think they are irrelevant, it's just that I cannot think of a single passage that teaches me the AGE of the Earth, Universe or Hominidae. It's just not there. Like I said the CSTs are not that sort of book, though one could make a claim for a Cosmoginical, or Cosmological point, this is not what is being discussed. I know I'm getting a bit HOT here, but not really, I just would like to discuss this matter without having to spend time wasted on arguments with anti-YEC/ID and visa-versa. Let's just talk about the age from a Scientific point of view and if someone does bring up a Bible verse, let's think about it and not just say, "It's from that book that makes no sense!" Because the truth is that it has value and as such it needs to be considered differently and not with a microscope and telescope in hand. Oh, bother I think I've open up Pandorah's box with this thread.

Oh, well, I can only hope we don't kill each other.

Peace,
Eric.

[Jorge]

Aaah, I see. The Bible doesn't actually give an age. The number comes from a calculation based on assumptions by fallible men, and interpretations by fallible men, and added up by fallible men, and passed on by fallible men.

We all know how you're fond of screaming "SCRIPTURE IS INERRANT AND INFALLIBLE!!, but the men who tossed in their own personal interpretations certainly weren't.

Bottom line is, you have no confirmed date from the Bible, just a guess from fallible men.

Thanks for pointing that out.

- T

***************************************************************

Good grief, man ... did you miss your AA meeting AGAIN ?!?

Jorge

[headheart]

***************************************************************

Good grief, man ... did you miss your AA meeting AGAIN ?!?

Jorge

Do you have a date from the Bible? If so either present something or stay in your room with your book.

Goodbye,
Eric.

[headheart]

Aaah, I see. The Bible doesn't actually give an age. The number comes from a calculation based on assumptions by fallible men, and interpretations by fallible men, and added up by fallible men, and passed on by fallible men.

We all know how you're fond of screaming "SCRIPTURE IS INERRANT AND INFALLIBLE!!, but the men who tossed in their own personal interpretations certainly weren't.

Bottom line is, you have no confirmed date from the Bible, just a guess from fallible men.

Thanks for pointing that out.

- T

Now before this escalates, I would like both yourself and Jorge to take your childish banter elsewhere, you have now both outstayed your welcome and shown that you have nothing of substance to contribute either way.

Goodbye,
Eric

[Sparko]

Moderated By: Sparko

Jorge and Tiggy: Please do not post in this thread again. Also note to others: please stay on topic and don't devolve into a flame war here. Thanks.

***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publically complain or whine, please take it to the Psychotherapy Room unless told otherwise.

[Wally]

That's exactly what I struggled with when it first dawned on me that I had a problem with my YEC position. Later on I discovered that it's not even a position that is held by Christians who are serious about Biology, Physics and Science. It's generally something that is motivated by a low level pseudo-scientific crowd who just want in on the discussion for one or other ulterior motive.
I still think that once one gets the Christian sacred texts in their right place in any discussion about the age of the earth, universe and hominidae it'll be okay as long those who are holding that view and those who are out-and-out anti-YEC and ID (or anti-Christian, or visa versa anti-Athiest, Darwin and Evolution) doesn't have to deal with any BIBLE BEATERS!!! or ATHEIST BEATERS!!! or CHRISTIAN BEATERS!!!! If that happens then I think that person shouldn't be in a discussion like this.
I mean I've put my thoughts about the CST on hold for now and not because I think they are irrelevant, it's just that I cannot think of a single passage that teaches me the AGE of the Earth, Universe or Hominidae. It's just not there. Like I said the CSTs are not that sort of book, though one could make a claim for a Cosmoginical, or Cosmological point, this is not what is being discussed. I know I'm getting a bit HOT here, but not really, I just would like to discuss this matter without having to spend time wasted on arguments with anti-YEC/ID and visa-versa. Let's just talk about the age from a Scientific point of view and if someone does bring up a Bible verse, let's think about it and not just say, "It's from that book that makes no sense!" Because the truth is that it has value and as such it needs to be considered differently and not with a microscope and telescope in hand. Oh, bother I think I've open up Pandorah's box with this thread.

Oh, well, I can only hope we don't kill each other.

Peace,
Eric.

It appears that the central theme of Jesus ministry was social justice and how we should treat our fellow man. When literalists push a non reality based agenda (age of the earth, the flood, tower of babble, etc.) it only serves to distract from a message that, no matter if you are a theist or not, is something all mankind can benefit from.
We should therefore strive for:
Civil honest discourse
Leave religious beliefs out of the pursuit of knowledge of objective reality
Unless they are causing harm or advocating dumming down education, avoid using science to discount someone’s religious philosophy.

[phank]

Jorge, from what I've read, is partially correct here. The "age of the universe, life and everything" WAS meticulously derived from biblical scripture. My reading is the methodology was as follows:
1) Assume the Christian creation tales are actual natural history (i.e. ignore the external evidence that they are not, which is ALL external evidence).
2) Assume that the geneologies in the bible are complete, nobody was omitted.
3) Assume generation lengths where they are not otherwise specified.
4) Add these all up. The result is an estimated elapsed time from Adam to the time the geneologies were written down.
5) Estimate as closely as possible when that was. Take that date to the present, add in the geneology sum, and we have a creation date.

Now, if we let external evidence leak in, we have no rational alternative but to regard the biblical creation tales as being much like the creation tales of all other cultures - mythological stories of great meaning and import within the context of each culture, to be sure, but certainly not historical as history is currently understood. Counting back to the time of a timeless myth has less chance of success than finding the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, and for the same reason. Stories written to impart moral instruction are not history tracts.

If you wish to learn what people have come to know worldwide through centuries of careful study and investigation, the internet is a wonderful tool. If you become curious enough to want more than the Reader's Digest version, I've personally had good luck with public libraries, or even college bookstores.

[headheart]

It appears that the central theme of Jesus ministry was social justice and how we should treat our fellow man. When literalists push a non reality based agenda (age of the earth, the flood, tower of babble, etc.) it only serves to distract from a message that, no matter if you are a theist or not, is something all mankind can benefit from.
We should therefore strive for:
Civil honest discourse
Leave religious beliefs out of the pursuit of knowledge of objective reality
Unless they are causing harm or advocating dumming down education, avoid using science to discount someone’s religious philosophy.

I think you know I am going to disagree with you as to your description of the central theme of Jesus's ministry but seeing as that is not what we are discussing here we can pretty much leave that for another discussion at another time, though I'm going to definitely encourage you to have a look into that.
As to leaving 'religious beliefs out of the pursuit of knowledge of objective reality' is a thorn bush full of arguments that I'm just going to ignore for now but my own approach to studying has changed so much over the years that I've found a place for G-d that does not intrude in my studies.
Peace,
Eric.

[headheart]

<snipped out the stuff which is going to take us too far off topic>

If you wish to learn what people have come to know worldwide through centuries of careful study and investigation, the internet is a wonderful tool. If you become curious enough to want more than the Reader's Digest version, I've personally had good luck with public libraries, or even college bookstores.

Sure. I'd say that study is what I'm all about too. So, let's leave the thread open now and see if anyone else has anything to add with regard to the age of the earth, universe and hominidae. (without a religious 'tilt')

Peace,
Eric

[Jorge]

• Edited by a Moderator •

Moderated By: Sparko

Gee Jorge, if you KNOW you are not supposed to post in this thread and I let it slip twice already and merely deleted your posts, what do you think is gonna happen now?

***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publically complain or whine, please take it to the Psychotherapy Room unless told otherwise.

[phank]

That's OK, Jorge, you don't need my explanation before you can post your own biblical dating methodology. Hopefully, you will be willing to post the assumptions on which that methodology rests, since Bishop Ussher certainly made a good many of them.

[Wally]

I think you know I am going to disagree with you as to your description of the central theme of Jesus's ministry but seeing as that is not what we are discussing here we can pretty much leave that for another discussion at another time, though I'm going to definitely encourage you to have a look into that.

Fair enough, let's just say that's the part that believers and nonbelievers should be able to agree is a noble pursuit.

As to leaving 'religious beliefs out of the pursuit of knowledge of objective reality' is a thorn bush full of arguments that I'm just going to ignore for now but my own approach to studying has changed so much over the years that I've found a place for G-d that does not intrude in my studies.

The reason I believe this is important is; no matter what your beliefs are, theist or non, reality is what it is. Anyone's preconceived notions can only distort your perceptions of it. Therefor it has to be investigated with a completely open mind and a willingness to follow the evidence, no matter where it leads.

Now, if you are a believer, then whatever reality entails, it is the direct handiwork of God, no editors or redactors possible. This is the [U]only[ /U]way to see an [U]original[ /U] autograph of Gods word/work. No other source can legitimately claim this.

[headheart]

'....noble path....'

Yes.

'....a completely open mind and a willingness to follow the evidence, no matter where it leads.'

As long as your brains don't drop out.

Peace,
Eric.

[KBertsche]

How Old Is The Earth, the Universe and our species?


I know that I'm supposed to say that the earth is somewhere between 6 000 and 10 000 years, that the Universe is 4.55 billion years old and that our species has evolved over roughly 100 000 years.

I'd like to read some authoritative literature about this as the only books I have are really old. I trust that seeing as you Natural Science wizards have been posting here for years you'll be able to point me to the best possible books, literature and information on this.

1. The Earth
2. The Universe
3. Our species

Peace,
Eric

It's difficult for me to understand what you are really looking for here.

Are you looking primarily for informatiion? If so, websites are a good place to start, but you seem to be reluctant to peruse the web for some reason.

Are you looking for the most scholarly, up-to-date information? I so, you'll need to go to the leading scientific journals and to read lots of very detailed articles on very narrow topics.

Are you looking for textbooks? If so, you're not likely to find a text specifically on the age of the universe, earth, or man; you are more likely to find this mentioned as a subtopic in a text about cosmology, radiometric dating, historical geology, paleontology, historical anthropology, or some other topic.

If you specifically want a BOOK, as it seems, your best bet is probably one of the polemical works directed at YECs. Unfortunately, most of these are not very recent.

You also don't say whether you are looking for books written from a Christian or a secular perspective, so I assume you will accept either.

(BTW, I have very high regard for the Faraday Institute; that's a good resource. The US equivalent is the ASA, which has an education area on their website which you may find helpful.).

For starters, here are a few suggestions:

Books, polemical, secular perspective:
G. Brent Dalrymple, The Age of the Earth (already suggested in this thread)
_____, Ancient Earth, Ancient Skies: The Age of the Earth and its Cosmic Surroundings
Arthur N. Strahler, Science and Earth History: The Evolution/Creation Controversy

Books, polemical, Evangelical perspective:
Hugh Ross, Creation and Time: A Biblical and Scientific Perspective on the Creation-Date Controversy
_____, The Creator and the Cosmos: How the Greatest Scientific Discoveries of the Century Reveal God
_____, The Genesis Question: Scientific Advances and the Accuracy of Genesis
_____, A Matter of Days: Resolving a Creation Controversy
Daniel E. Wonderly, God's time-records in ancient sediments: Evidences of long time spans in Earth's history (free here)
_____, Neglect of Geologic Data: Sedimentary Strata Compared with Young-Earth Creationist Writings
Davis A. Young, The Bible, Rocks, and Time: Geological Evidence for the Age of the Earth
_____, Christianity and the Age of the Earth

Websites, secular:
TalkOrigins

Websites, Evangelical:
Answers in Creation
ASA
IBSS
Reasons to Believe

Specific articles:
NASA Goddard
UCLA
Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_universe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_Earth
Chris Stasson
USGS