Annhilationism v Traditional View of Hell

[MegaHertz]

Isn't that a reference to the original sin that happened in the garden. Going to the grave wipes the slate cle4an as far as ins following a person there, even the ones that get sent to hell do not have the sins that got them there attached when they are released from hell to stand before God at the Great White Throne event.

[Dee Dee Warren]

This debate takes place tomorrow. I will invite the participants to this thread when done

[MegaHertz]

For the traditionalist:
1. If endless conscious punishment is true, why was it not articulated in a clear and unambiguous manner from the opening pages of Scripture? That is to say, why must traditionalists appeal to the NT only in attempting to make the case for eternal conscious torment (e.g., ~1500 years after the inscripturation process began)? Are we to believe scores of millions of people lived and died without understanding the potential fate that awaited them? Would a loving God not make it abundantly clear from the opening words of the Bible of the ramifications of their sin?

It was made clear to Adam what the punishment for sin would be, death. What was not fully explained to Adam is how that actually 'worked'. Job and Solomon both say death is a place that is equal to a dreamless sleep and no matter when you die there is a common point where people are made awake (resurrected), the first such group are those destined to be alive for the 1,000 year reign. That sleepless death would have also covered any sin committed in the flesh so dieing unrepented means you qualify as a member of the 2nd group (Great White Throne) rather than being the static population that is alive on the earth. So death will hold many during that time, hell is death without sleep and when there you always are thirsty and hungry and pain can be felt, the people that get sent there are the same in both verses.

Isa:65:12:
Therefore will I number you to the sword,
and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter:
because when I called,
ye did not answer;
when I spake,
ye did not hear;
but did evil before mine eyes,
and did choose that wherein I delighted not.


Re:19:15:
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword,
that with it he should smite the nations:
and he shall rule them with a rod of iron:
and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Re:19:21:
And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse,
which sword proceeded out of his mouth:
and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

2. 1 Timothy 6:16 makes it clear that God alone possesses immortality. In light of this revelation, do you find it compatible with God’s love to suggest He bestows immortality on the unrepentant for the sole purposes of inflicting eternal conscious torment?

The ones sent to hell are the 2/3 of the world that are unrepented when the 7th trump sounds, in the time they are dead and awake they can look upon Satan, whom the worshiped as God, this is a fulfillment of a NT verse that Say not to fear Satan because he cannot hurt you after you die, God, however, can and does increase the punishment for the sinners that exist on the day the 7th trump sounds. Along with seeing their former god in chains they are also preached to at some point, perhaps after Satan is released and they remain in hell for that 'little season' that Satan has just prior to being sent to the lake with all the remaining fallen angels that were not sent to the lake when Jesus returned. Stan comes up against people that have been perfected in the 1,000 years of being taught about the kingdom of God by Jesus and the 24 Elders who will also have thrones during that time. Long story short, 'perfected people' are not tempted or frightened by Satan's appearance, they are quite aware that they are there (everybody just happens to be in Israel for the yearly feast of the tabernacles when Satan is released. (Magog and Gog are places in Israel for the full 1,000 years so the release is not a surprise move. It is the event needed to allow people to be 'raptured to heaven in a glorified body and having a perfected heart'.

Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

1Pe:4:6:
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead,
that they might be judged according to men in the flesh,
but live according to God in the spirit.

3. Upon what basis do you suppose the only form of punishment is consciousness? Why do you presuppose eternal separation (e.g., non-life) is no punishment at all? Would that mean criminals who are executed for egregious crimes are not really enduring the consequences of their actions since they are not around to sense their punishment?

The punishment is as eternal as hell, hell only exists (for people) from the sound of the 7th trump until until the GWT, at which time Re: would unfold to go along with the bolded verse below. (the servants are the ones alive for the 1,000 years so their sins were forgotten at the start of that block of time)

Isa:65:13:
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD,
Behold,
my servants shall eat,
but ye shall be hungry: behold,
my servants shall drink,
but ye shall be thirsty: behold,
my servants shall rejoice,
but ye shall be ashamed:
Isa:65:14:
Behold,
my servants shall sing for joy of heart,
but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart,
and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
Isa:65:15:
And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen:
for the Lord GOD shall slay thee,
and call his servants by another name:
Isa:65:16:
That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth;
and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth;
because the former troubles are forgotten,
and because they are hid from mine eyes.
Isa:65:17:
For,
behold,
I create new heavens and a new earth:
and the former shall not be remembered,
nor come into mind.


The rest of the chapter is for the ones under punishment as the new earth only happens after the GWT and the ones alive for the 1,000 years have the 144,000 as being the first of a larger group that includes everybody born into the 12 Tribes and a select number of Gentiles going as far back as Adam and counting everybody alive on the day the 7th trump sounds. In the New Earth they reside inside New Jerusalem and they play the role that Israel did during the 1,000 year reign, all Gentiles will have a variety of reasons to come to Jerusalem. New Jerusalem has a static population for eternity and the population outside the city will increase for eternity and our universe will all become part of the Nations of the New Earth over eternity.

Re:14:4:
These are they which were not defiled with women;
for they are virgins.
These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth.
These were redeemed from among men,
being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Re:14:5:
And in their mouth was found no guile:
for they are without fault before the throne of God.

M't:22:30:
For in the resurrection they neither marry,
nor are given in marriage,
but are as the angels of God in heaven.

It is enough that a person can sense death coming for them and leaving again. OT death and NT Hell need some differences, the story of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus is the difference.

Job:14:12-17:
So man lieth down,
and riseth not: till the heavens be no more,
they shall not awake,
nor be raised out of their sleep.
O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave,
that thou wouldest keep me secret,
until thy wrath be past,
that thou wouldest appoint me a set time,
and remember me!
If a man die,
shall he live again?
all the days of my appointed time will I wait,
till my change come.
Thou shalt call,
and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
For now thou numberest my steps:
dost thou not watch over my sin?
My transgression is sealed up in a bag,
and thou sewest up mine iniquity.

Ec:9:10:
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do,
do it with thy might;
for there is no work,
nor device,
nor knowledge,
nor wisdom,
in the grave,
whither thou goest.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Dude this thread is NOT to debate or answer the questions, at least not yet.

[MegaHertz]

I did read that post, hopefully I am giving them something new (when they get here) that was not covered in their debate. Is there some link where I can read about what points are discussed?

[Dee Dee Warren]

I can't guarantee that either participant will post here, though I will certainly invite them to. The debate mp3s will be posted on Chris Date's podcast, I will post links when it is available.

[Chris D]

You can listen to part 1's opening statements and first rebuttals here

[Chris D]

Dee Dee did a great job moderating, by the way. Thanks, Dee Dee, for your time and effort!

[KingsGambit]

Good to see you here, Chris. I enjoy your podcast.

[Chris D]

Thanks!

[Dee Dee Warren]

Thank you Chris.

[MegaHertz]

I'm sure my post would not fit in your comment section.

I'm going to take an extreme view on universal salvation for not just mankind but also for any flesh that has/will exist to the time the 7th trump sounds, which is the day Jesus returns.

Lu:3:6:
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

1Co:15:39:
All flesh is not the same flesh:
but there is one kind of flesh of men,
another flesh of beasts,
another of fishes,
and another of birds.

Ho:2:18:
And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field,
and with the fowls of heaven,
and with the creeping things of the ground:
and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth,
and will make them to lie down safely.

Re:19:17:
And I saw an angel standing in the sun;
and he cried with a loud voice,
saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven,
Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

M't:10:29:
Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing?
and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
M't:10:30:
But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
M't:10:31:
Fear ye not therefore,
ye are of more value than many sparrows.

The above is meant to show that the fowl and beasts of the field that are invited to the feast on sinners do not live very long past that point, when they 'lay down' they are dead. The 1,000 ends with fire from God in heaven pretty much melting the earth, mankind is taken to heaven because they know the difference between good and evil. Had beasts of the field and 'other flesh' been alive they would have been sent to the fiery lake. Before taking their lives they are told they will be 'remembered', that means resurrected to the physical state they were in. During the 1,000 only the waters of the Dead Sea are healed, in the New earth Eden will start of with a flurry of life because all flesh will be 'healed' when the living waters goes out into the new earth. All of mankind will end up with an 'instant nation' if the garden is used as an example, complete with all sorts of 'other flesh'.

Isa:60:22:
A little one shall become a thousand,
and a small one a strong nation:
I the LORD will hasten it in his time.

A point needs to be made here and that is clearing up what death is, in the OT and NT it is equal to falling into a dreamless sleep. Job:14 explains it quite well. The time he experiences as well as the last to die that also gets resurrected experience death as 'one blink'. Some come alive at the beginning of the 1,000 year reign (a small percent compared to all of mankind). A couple of verses would make my whole point very plain but there is also a longer version just because so many references from the Bible need to be discussed for context and how one relates to another even though it is from an entirely different passage

Take the ones Jesus kills in the verse below as being the same ones killed by the sword in Isaiah 65. From the start of that chapter the ones being 'talked to' are the ones that will be killed and they are told why they will be killed. (a lengthy topic but if God stops a person from having free will when it comes to belief in God then God at some other point in time has to make amends for that of free will does not exist. 2/3 of all of the living people will die by that sword on that same day, their deaths are described in all of Re:16 and the sorrows listed in Isa:65 are what the ones that are sent to hell experience. If God said there was an ending to that punishment in the OT then He doses not have to repeat it several times in the NT, (it is confirmed none the less in Hebrews 12, those people are forgiven and remain alive).
If the servants have been having a grand old time then they have been shedding no tears during that period (1,000 years). In the 'new earth' Jerusalem is the 'New Jerusalem' of Re:21. That is where the servants (in Isa:65) and the ones listed in Re:20:4 are the same group and they will live in Jerusalem and the ones that come alive for the Great White Throne event are the one building houses in the Nations in the 'new earth. When Jerusalem lands this world will look it did after the fire sent Satan and the fallen angels to the fiery lake.

Isa:65:16:
That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth;
and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten,
and because they are hid from mine eyes.
Isa:65:17:
For,
behold,
I create new heavens and a new earth:
and the former shall not be remembered,
nor come into mind.
Isa:65:19:
And I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
and joy in my people:
and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her,
nor the voice of crying.

The servants will be the ones that inhabit New Jerusalem, they are the whole population that will be on earth for the 1,000 year reign, they use that time to get the training they will need to be Priests to the 'losers' who aren't alive for that time. The thing with Satan is not over until after he has his 'little season' after the 1,000 years. All people will be at the yearly feast of the tabernacles (Zec:14) when that release happens and Satan will come on a place the resembles the garden only now it has a glorious city and a perfected people.

Hers is the 'climax', .... taking that term 'just men made perfect' from Hebrews 12 would put that scene at the Great White Throne (Re:20) and the ones being chastised would be all the ones made alive on that day. The ones that death held (dead and unaware) will be woken up (include all people who never had the chance to meet Jesus for whatever reason would be part of this group, death covered all their sins and no further punishment is warranted. The ones in hell are specifically the 2/3 of the world that are unrepented when the 7th trump sounds, they are the last sinners to ever exist and their deaths takes about 3 hours and by the evening of the day the 2 witnesses are resurrected the whole of the 12 Tribes going back to Abraham are alive, the NT Church is alive and any Gentiles from the OT that God wants alive will be alive on that first evening. It stays that way for the whole 1,000 years and then this group will be 'raptured' to heaven and they will enter New Jerusalem while 'the rest' are interviewed by God. The ones from hell completed their punishment, they were in hell until hell no longer existed, hell's eternal fire will join the fiery lake. God gives them a pardon and it is 'the rest' that are the ones God is talking to in Re:21, they get the water and the law which is the 2nd birth, remain alive and be able to see God's face.

Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

2Co:12:2:
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago,
(whether in the body,
I cannot tell;
or whether out of the body,
I cannot tell:
God knoweth;)
such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Heb:12:22:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb:12:23:
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


Question, are the ones being chastised in Hebrews 12 sent for eternal life with Satan and the fallen angels of do they remain with their 'mediator'? If the answer is then the topic is solved, universal salvation for mankind, you might be able to get into the first chosen group, if not you become part of the 2nd group.

Heb:12:5-9:
And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children,
My son,
despise not thou the chastening of the Lord,
nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth,
and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening,
God dealeth with you as with sons;
for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement,
whereof all are partakers,
then are ye bastards,
and not sons.
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us,
and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits,
and live?

All men are saved because the breath of all men goes to the same place so when it returns all return, not just some.

Ec:12:7:
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Eze:37:9:
Then said he unto me,
Prophesy unto the wind,
prophesy,
son of man,
and say to the wind,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Come from the four winds,
O breath,
and breathe upon these slain,
that they may live.
Eze:37:10:
So I prophesied as he commanded me,
and the breath came into them,
and they lived,
and stood up upon their feet,
an exceeding great army.

Give me a little time to do a few highlights to you recording.

[garylee12]

Why the parable of the rich man and Lazarus if annhilationism is true?

I did a very long study last night. The rich man and Lazarus is not strictly a parable but a truth although your soul is in hades not your body referring asking for water on the tip of his tongue. Other than that there are two compartments to hades or sheol where the soul goes after death. So before judgement there can be no extinction for sure. Abrahams bosom was paradise which was emptied out when Jesus went there before his ressurection. He freed the old testament saints who had their sins covered but not forgiven yet. So therefore the other compartment of hades is still full of souls that are being punished away from the presence of god's love. So therefore we definitely do not cease to exist or soul sleep is a false doctrine. Now that abrahams bosom or paradise is empty it says a christian soul goes straight to heaven when they die. But they don't receive their body until the resurrection at the rapture.

What happens in the lake of fire I am still studying very carefully. It says some are punished with many stripes which makes me think of some duration of punishment in hell at least.