Infant Resurrection?

[maudman]

I tend to agree. I think our resurrection bodies will be the perfect "us" no matter what that turns out to be.

yeah I think so too.. It will be perfect us... Its like liking someone without being able to explain why?

[seanD]

I'll make a totally speculative guess. They will be resurrected in the next age, and will grow up and be raised as normal humans, though they won't experience the promises given to the heirs of Christ in this age. Anyone who responds, I won't argue because it's a total guess.

[Scrawly]

I'll make a totally speculative guess. They will be resurrected in the next age, and will grow up and be raised as normal humans, though they won't experience the promises given to the heirs of Christ in this age. Anyone who responds, I won't argue because it's a total guess.

Yeah Sparko mentioned that too. I never thought of it that way, but definitely is possible.

[maudman]

I'll make a totally speculative guess. They will be resurrected in the next age, and will grow up and be raised as normal humans, though they won't experience the promises given to the heirs of Christ in this age. Anyone who responds, I won't argue because it's a total guess.

That is what I was told by the WWCG.. That we will be raising our children in the "New age to come belief system"..

But remember Christ response when asked about the woman who married many times and they asked who's wife will she be in the kingdom? Christ answered, you neither marry nor are given in marriage in the kingdom.. What if you had multiple infant deaths or just one.. I'm not saying the Idea of having to raise children is wrong.. But how will two people raise a child as parents in the kingdom to come if the Idea of traditional marriage is out.. Maybe the Child will have already been raised in the kingdom by God by the time we get there? Maybe The child will one day be like Joseph of many Colors.. Similarly Maybe The child will say? I'm the one you left to be aborted when confronting the parents.. See what I mean.. Remeber the rich man wanting to go back from the grave and warn is children not to do the things he had done? Infant death can be any senario and what action will God's will determine for us? In my mind that is why the best answer is usually God's will be done and who can truly say what that is? God Loves his children as a mother loves her children. We really can't imagine but we often try to rationalize God's will as if the same for everyone but it isn't.. Salvation will mean at times something different but it's really the same because Love is what it is?

Peace and God Bless

[One Bad Pig]

Came across this today, in Excerpts from Theodotus:

XLI. Scripture says that infants which are exposed are delivered to a guardian angel, and that by him they are trained and reared. "And they shall be," it says, "as the faithful in this world of a hundred years of age." Wherefore also Peter, in the Revelation, says: "And a flash of fire, leaping from those infants, and striking the eyes of the women." For the just shines: forth as a spark in a reed, and will judge the nations.

XLVIII. For instance, Peter says in the Apocalypse, that abortive infants shall share the better fate; that these are committed to a guardian angel, so that, on receiving knowledge, they may obtain the better abode, having had the same experiences which they would have had had they been in the body. But the others shall obtain salvation merely, as being injured and pitied, and remain without punishment, receiving this reward.

Theodotus (who probably wrote c. 70-130 AD) was a bit of a gnostic; he seems to be quoting the apocryphal Apocalypse of Peter. It looks like the first excerpt is referring to exposed infants who die, and the second is referring to the death of a fetus, and distinguishing between abortion and miscarriage as the cause of death.

[apostoli]

From my reading of ancient secular and christian history there was in the first centuries a period of fanaticism = infanticide, suicide etc was viewed as an advantage given persecutions etc. Thus we find in the church fathers discouragement for such practices and encouragement for perseverance...

I'm unsure as when the RCC came up with the idea of limbo (now not official policy) but at a philosophical sense, given the fabel of original sin, it makes sense, especially given Ezekiel 18.

As for infant resurrection, and given Jesus pronouncement in the context of bewedding, I can only assume that the child is resurrected to maturity or (given Jesus' other pronouncements) we are resuurected to childhood.

[maudman]

Came across this today, in Excerpts from Theodotus:

XLI. Scripture says that infants which are exposed are delivered to a guardian angel, and that by him they are trained and reared. "And they shall be," it says, "as the faithful in this world of a hundred years of age." Wherefore also Peter, in the Revelation, says: "And a flash of fire, leaping from those infants, and striking the eyes of the women." For the just shines: forth as a spark in a reed, and will judge the nations.

XLVIII. For instance, Peter says in the Apocalypse, that abortive infants shall share the better fate; that these are committed to a guardian angel, so that, on receiving knowledge, they may obtain the better abode, having had the same experiences which they would have had had they been in the body. But the others shall obtain salvation merely, as being injured and pitied, and remain without punishment, receiving this reward.

Theodotus (who probably wrote c. 70-130 AD) was a bit of a gnostic; he seems to be quoting the apocryphal Apocalypse of Peter. It looks like the first excerpt is referring to exposed infants who die, and the second is referring to the death of a fetus, and distinguishing between abortion and miscarriage as the cause of death.

Hey Bad Piggy,

I kinda believe along those lines... Whe tend to think we will be given a chance to rectify our wrongs in some cases of quilt, and in other case we tend to reason some form of justification on Gods Part..
But really God has determined things before the foundations of the world because he desired that all should be saved? If some people were born with affliction so Christ could heal when he Healed as written? Who can really know what God does for the reasons God does things.. God Creates a universe that we see with our eyes and can't imagine its breath or width or the things that make it up.. Truly how much more for the things we can only see with our minds eye as infants in Christ..

[One Bad Pig]

From my reading of ancient secular and christian history there was in the first centuries a period of fanaticism = infanticide, suicide etc was viewed as an advantage given persecutions etc. Thus we find in the church fathers discouragement for such practices and encouragement for perseverance...

I agree that the church fathers emphatically discouraged infanticide and suicide, but you're badly misreading why. Far from seeing infant exposure as an advantage, Christians were well-known for taking in exposed infants and raising them as part of their family. That's where the libel of infant sacrifice came from.

[apostoli]

I agree that the church fathers emphatically discouraged infanticide and suicide, but you're badly misreading why. Far from seeing infant exposure as an advantage, Christians were well-known for taking in exposed infants and raising them as part of their family. That's where the libel of infant sacrifice came from.

From a north african historical perespective I have to disagree. In early christianity there is sufficient evidence of infantcide & susicide to avoid persectuction. No point in running from historical fact! In fact it is of value to examine the churches response to such events!

[Sparko]

From a north african historical perespective I have to disagree. In early christianity there is sufficient evidence of infantcide & susicide to avoid persectuction. No point in running from historical fact! In fact it is of value to examine the churches response to such events!

what evidence do you have?

[apostoli]

what evidence do you have?

Lots!

[Sparko]

Lots!

ok. so post some.

[apostoli]

ok. so post some.

Firstly, my remark limited itself to the experience of early Christianity in North Africa. A quick read of Augustine makes it plain that voluntary martyrdom (suicide) was a big problem in North Africa. There were even groups (what Augustine refers to as the circumcellion) that voilently provoked people to kill them so their fellows could claim martyrdom for them. We also have accounts of young virgins throwing themselves off roof tops and cliffs so they would remain undefiled for Christ, and at the other extreme, even accounts of bystanders throwing themselves into the arena and onto fires so they could join the pious - Eusebius describes a scene of hysteria in Nicomedia where mass voluntary martyrdom occured. Also worth reading Clement and his approach to the problem.

Concerning infantcide, I was refering to events where mothers in despair (the usual justfication given) terminated their childrens life to save them from the horrors of executions / persecutions.

[Sparko]

Firstly, my remark limited itself to the experience of early Christianity in North Africa. A quick read of Augustine makes it plain that voluntary martyrdom (suicide) was a big problem in North Africa. There were even groups (what Augustine refers to as the circumcellion) that voilently provoked people to kill them so their fellows could claim martyrdom for them. We also have accounts of young virgins throwing themselves off roof tops and cliffs so they would remain undefiled for Christ, and at the other extreme, even accounts of bystanders throwing themselves into the arena and onto fires so they could join the pious - Eusebius describes a scene of hysteria in Nicomedia where mass voluntary martyrdom occured. Also worth reading Clement and his approach to the problem.

Concerning infantcide, I was refering to events where mothers in despair (the usual justfication given) terminated their childrens life to save them from the horrors of executions / persecutions.

ok, but that is still you making claims and not giving evidence.

And I don't think that someone killing their child to save them from being tortured to death would be considered infanticide in any culture. That would be an extreme circumstance.

[apostoli]

ok, but that is still you making claims and not giving evidence.

Fair call. If necessary I will inundate you with citations but that just makes life easy for those too lazy to do genuine research, not to mention providing ample ammunition for those opposed to the church. I did refer you to the writings of particularly Augustine, Clement and Eusebius.C. The excesses of North African churches/sects has never been a secret. In my circles it has been openly discussed since my RCC school days in the context of veneration of the "saints", and these days in the context of NA religious fanaticism (Christian & otherwise).

And I don't think that someone killing their child to save them from being tortured to death would be considered infanticide in any culture. That would be an extreme circumstance.

Imu, such would be concidered an indictable offence in at least the USA, UK, Ireland, Oz & Canada. Augustine is an interesting read. Imu, he basically argued that such actions were a failure of belief/faith in God (basically people playing God rather than trusting in him).