Infant Resurrection?

[Sparko]

Fair call. If necessary I will inundate you with citations but that just makes life easy for those too lazy to do genuine research, not to mention providing ample ammunition for those opposed to the church. I did refer you to the writings of particularly Augustine, Clement and Eusebius.C. The excesses of North African churches/sects has never been a secret. In my circles it has been openly discussed since my RCC school days in the context of veneration of the "saints", and these days in the context of NA religious fanaticism (Christian & otherwise).

Imu, such would be concidered an indictable offence in at least the USA, UK, Ireland, Oz & Canada. Augustine is an interesting read. Imu, he basically argued that such actions were a failure of belief/faith in God (basically people playing God rather than trusting in him).

I think it would depend on how credible and immanent the threat was of the torture and execution. besides, anyone committing such an action would have been killed themselves and not available for Augustine to argue with.

[apostoli]

I think it would depend on how credible and immanent the threat was of the torture and execution. besides, anyone committing such an action would have been killed themselves and not available for Augustine to argue with.

Not necessarily. Parents did survive. And there are documented cases where their readmission to communion was questioned (same with various bishops who had sacrificed to the emperor to avoid persecution).

We tend to be fixated on the limits of the Roman empire and forget about the Parthian and Arminian empires that Christians often fled to for protection. An issue I have is the mediterranean focus many of us have. Europe (Roman empire) is merely a speck on the world map, so I think that while most of western history is viewed from that lense, it is unwise to investigate Christianity exclusively through that lense. An argument from the ancient fathers was that if Christ had wanted us to seek martyrdom he would not have told the disciples to flee (eg. Mt 10:23). So there is no justification in any voluntary martyrdom (suicide or infantcide)!

As for credible and immanent threat, there is no historical example we can resort to to give your assertian credence. Until Domitian there was no universal persecution of "christians" in the empire, and even then there was the abilty to flee to safe havens. Persecutions until then are said to have been sporadic and localised. For instance in the eastern part of the empire, in response to Parthian incursions the Romans passed a law prohibiting "social clubs", various christian associations were caught up in this law and encountered suppression.

[RBerman]

Fair call. If necessary I will inundate you with citations but that just makes life easy for those too lazy to do genuine research, not to mention providing ample ammunition for those opposed to the church.

Is that how we make arguments these days? "I am right, and to see why, go do your own research, or else you are lazy." Really? Usually the burden of proof lies with the person making a particular claim, which in this case would be you.

[apostoli]

Fair call. If necessary I will inundate you with citations but that just makes life easy for those too lazy to do genuine research, not to mention providing ample ammunition for those opposed to the church. I did refer you to the writings of particularly Augustine, Clement and Eusebius.C. The excesses of North African churches/sects has never been a secret. In my circles it has been openly discussed since my RCC school days in the context of veneration of the "saints", and these days in the context of NA religious fanaticism (Christian & otherwise).

Is that how we make arguments these days? "I am right, and to see why, go do your own research, or else you are lazy." Really? Usually the burden of proof lies with the person making a particular claim, which in this case would be you.

I have a choice: give antagonists against christianity the evidence for their arguments or direct Christians to christian material and let them make their own decision. Suggest you take your antagonistic and non-contributory rhetoric and stuff it with the rest of your phariseeism...
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nb: note, I've edited this response to quote my initial full reply to Sparko (with emphasis), rather than RBerman's selection...

[RBerman]

I have a choice: give antagonists against christianity the evidence for their arguments or direct Christians to christian material and let them make their own decision. Suggest you take your antagonistic and non-contributory rhetoric and stuff it with the rest of your phariseeism...
______________

nb: note, I've edited this response to quote my initial full reply to Sparko (with emphasis), rather than RBerman's selection...

"The writings of Augustine, Clement, and Eusebius" is hardly a complete argument. If you don't want to defend your point, just say you don't have time or interest to do so. Don't blame the other guy for not proving your position for you.

[apostoli]

"The writings of Augustine, Clement, and Eusebius" is hardly a complete argument. If you don't want to defend your point, just say you don't have time or interest to do so. Don't blame the other guy for not proving your position for you.

I've nothing but time on my side should I wish to utulize it. But for an endevour that is famously docomented I'm not willing to waste gigabytes of space to re-document what is common knowledge!

And noteably, I didn't blame Sparko or anyone else "for not proving your position for" me. In fact I offered to inundate them with evidence!

Either, you contribute to this thread or go away...give a position, substantiate it or ortherwise with references... frankly, so far all I can detect is you are bored and want a voice...

[RBerman]

I've nothing but time on my side should I wish to utulize it. But for an endevour that is famously docomented I'm not willing to waste gigabytes of space to re-document what is common knowledge! And noteably, I didn't blame Sparko or anyone else "for not proving your position for" me. In fact I offered to inundate them with evidence!

Yes, an offer within an insult:

If necessary I will inundate you with citations but that just makes life easy for those too lazy to do genuine research

[Sparko]

meh.

[apostoli]

meh.

I had to have a laugh - thankyou! From wikipedia:"Meh" is an interjection, often used as an expression of indifference or boredom. It can also be used to indicate agreement or disagreement. It can also be used as a verb, (rendering something uninteresting or boring) and an adjective, meaning mediocre or boring."

[Sparko]

I had to have a laugh - thankyou! From wikipedia:"Meh" is an interjection, often used as an expression of indifference or boredom. It can also be used to indicate agreement or disagreement. It can also be used as a verb, (rendering something uninteresting or boring) and an adjective, meaning mediocre or boring."

well we were getting way off the topic so we should just let it go at this point.

[apostoli]

well we were getting way off the topic so we should just let it go at this point.

agreed!

[gary cook]

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[Sparko]

of course there will be a bodily resurrection, just like Jesus' body was resurrected from the dead.

Romans 6:5
For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.

The new earth is not created until AFTER the resurrection and judgment.