Quantum theory & the premises of Kalam cosmological argument

[ZackMartin]

I disagree, to have a conceptual view of 'absolute nothing,' you do not need empty your mind to conceive of 'absolute nothingness.' You simply have to conceive of the nature what it would be like if there exists 'absolute nothing.' A similar problem exists with 'conceiving of infinities' is a problem with Christian apologists. You do not have to wrap you mind around infinities to conceive of the concept of infinities.

But how does one have a conceptual view of "absolute nothingess"? I don't have one; how do I get one?

I can understand the concept of infinity, at least to a limited degree. Imagine I am in a room, and in the room there is a door to the next room. So I open the door, and go to the next room. And in the next room, I find a door to the next room, and so on for each subsequent room. If the series of rooms is finite, eventually I'll get to a room, and there will be no door to the next room, there will just be a blank wall. Whereas, if the series of rooms is infinite, then no matter how many doors I go through, there will always be another one. So I don't think this is possible in a physical sense, but I can conceive of it, so I can say it is possible in a logical sense.

But I'm not sure how to carry out a similar exercise for "absolute nothingness". Can you suggest how?

[ZackMartin]

I have a related question - Can random digits come as the result of will? If I think - 'I am going to write down a list of completely random digits' - does that act create what you call digits that are truly random? In other words the exception to 'Truly random cannot exist' might be random states willed by some intelligence. In which case the finding of randomness might be evidence of intelligent cause.

That's certainly possible, if you accept some versions of free will. The answer comes down to (1) do humans have real free will (as opposed to maybe just the appearance of it)? (2) is free will compatible with determinism? If you answer yes to (1), and no to (2), then your list of random digits could be truly random (Kolmogorov incompressible).

[shunyadragon]

But how does one have a conceptual view of "absolute nothingess"? I don't have one; how do I get one?

Imagine a true absolute vacuum with nothing in it. Being able to conceive of something in the mind does not mean it is possible.

I can understand the concept of infinity, at least to a limited degree. Imagine I am in a room, and in the room there is a door to the next room. So I open the door, and go to the next room. And in the next room, I find a door to the next room, and so on for each subsequent room. If the series of rooms is finite, eventually I'll get to a room, and there will be no door to the next room, there will just be a blank wall. Whereas, if the series of rooms is infinite, then no matter how many doors I go through, there will always be another one. So I don't think this is possible in a physical sense, but I can conceive of it, so I can say it is possible in a logical sense.

Based on the above your understanding of infinities is an ancient on based on Aristotle's work. He never was willing to discuss what may be beyond the nine spheres of his universe. Time for an update with Infinities and the Mind by Rudy Rucker which is a textbook at Princeton University, but readable and understandable nonetheless.

What you are trying to visualize is a classic ancient Aristotilian 'Actual Infinity,' which is not well applicable the modern infinities. This infinity would a type of a set infinity containing a series of connected rooms, such as the archeac Hotel argument.

Eternal Time - Simple imagine a vector with two arrows at each end, one pointing to the past, and one to the future. Naturally there are no units of time on the line and any point you choose is as a beginning point will be arbitrary, and there is no end point in either the past nor the future. This would be an 'Infinite & Unbounded' Infinity.'

If you chose a point and go into the past or the present and assign units to your infinity, you will have 'potential infinity.' Potential infinities are Infinite & Bounded' Infinities. No matter how far you go into the past or the future you will always have one more unit beyond where you stop.

Infinities in Space - Lucretius in the 1st century BC was the first to poke infinite holes into Aristotle's limited infinities by simply imagining an infinite arrow (dart?) shot threw all nine spheres of Aristotle's world and continuing through space. If there is nothing to stop the arrow it will continue into the infinity of space and the eternity in time.

[JimL]

Imagine a true absolute vacuum with nothing in it.

But that was my question earlier, Is a true absolute vacuum nothing? I can concieve of empty space, but I'm not sure that equates with concieving of nothing.

Being able to conceive of something in the mind does not mean it is possible

But not being able to conceive of "nothingness," may mean that it is inconceivable, may mean that such a state is impossible.

[pancreasman]

Nope, space is indeed something.

[robertb]

Yes space is some thing and no space is no thing.

[shunyadragon]

Yes space is some thing and no space is no thing.

I did not use space in my conception of 'absolute nothing.

[robertb]

I did not use space in my conception of 'absolute nothing.

I don't believe that I made that claim.

[shunyadragon]

But that was my question earlier, Is a true absolute vacuum nothing? I can concieve of empty space, but I'm not sure that equates with concieving of nothing.

Yes, the true absolute vacuum containing absolutely nothing that I would conceive in my mind would be 'absolutely nothing,' no problem by definition. The Biblical void is sometimes philosophically conceived as absolutely nothing.

Actually in the past when scientists had the goal of creating vacuums, they conceived of what they could create truly 'absolutely nothing.' They were wrong in their likly impossible goal, but they did conceive of it.

But not being able to conceive of "nothingness," may mean that it is inconceivable, may mean that such a state is impossible.

Yes, if this were true, but I do not believe it so.

[JimL]

Yes, the true absolute vacuum containing absolutely nothing that I would conceive in my mind would be 'absolutely nothing,' no problem by definition. The Biblical void is sometimes philosophically conceived as absolutely nothing.

Actually in the past when scientists had the goal of creating vacuums, they conceived of what they could create truly 'absolutely nothing.' They were wrong in their likly impossible goal, but they did conceive of it.



Yes, if this were true, but I do not believe it so.

Well, I have read that space itself is created at the Big Bang, so if we ran the clock backwards in time by 14 billion years how would you define the "nothing" which is now the place of our spacetime? If space itself is created, then you can't define it as empty space, so what would be your conception of it?

[JimL]

Yes space is some thing and no space is no thing.

And can you concieve of this non spatial no-thing in your mind?

[shunyadragon]

Well, I have read that space itself is created at the Big Bang, so if we ran the clock backwards in time by 14 billion years how would you define the "nothing" which is now the place of our spacetime? If space itself is created, then you can't define it as empty space, so what would be your conception of it?

Problem here, my conception in the mind of 'absolute nothing' has nothing to do with the cosmology and science of our physical existence as you describe above. The concept of 'absolute nothing' is a philosophical concept, and likely impossible in reality, and not a coherent concept in science.

I do not consider space? created at the Big Bang. Nothing is created or destroyed in natural processes, and there is nothing created from 'absolute nothing.' The Big Bang (beginning of our universe as we know it) occurred within a greater. matrix of the cosmos described as a zero-state field, and formed from prior existing material.. The universe expanded into this matrix after if began

[shunyadragon]

And can you concieve of this non spatial no-thing in your mind?

Yes. People who write science fiction create many such things of the mind.