Wicca is an evil, demonic power thirsty faith.

[headheart]

I'm just an A Level student, my respect should not be worth much to anyone.

Alright Jack. I must say for someone so young you certainly know how to assemble sentences far better than most the jugglers and clowns around here . Are you sure you don't have someone writing out you splendid volleys or is that just a really great education banging at my door? I'll go for the latter. You have youth on your side, but having had a pretty dark journey myself and currently rewriting a book that I wrote about "Witchcraft" (from a Christian perspective) and hoping for a more balanced approach I have spent hours on the Celtic Connection Forum in direct dialogue with witches (Wiccans and those into Traditional Witchcraft) unlearning a lot of the stuff that is fed to Christians who have been primed by those who know about the beliefs but not the people. I was also a member at ex-witch and though my then Hyper-Calvinist stance got me the boot, I learned enough about ex-witches to know that not everything in Wicca is wretched. (I could elaborate but I would really like those who are hammering down on me to make some effort to assemble more than cliches in the way they are approaching a subject which has held my attention for quite a few years now.) I don't even want to begin to talk about the shocks that I had moving from South Africa to England. A whole other story indeed!!!!

I don't think I need to remind you of what I said back in post 17 about presuppositions and fully expect you to understand that I will be making a Christian argument.

Okay. I can understand that you don't have a considerable archive of information to draw from and in your case I am willing to let you get on with that. Obviously, others are going to want to back-you-up and so I will probably not be able to respond as I might have. Anyhow it's over to you then, young Jack.

Peace,
Old Man (54)
Eric.

[Bill the Cat]

... BTC flawed thesis .

You've yet to show a flaw, Eric.

[headheart]

You've yet to show a flaw, Eric.

Oh, I have many floors. You might like to start off by reading my first draft of 'Witchcraft' by Eric Sawyer (roughly 12 years ago)

Peace,
Eric

[SwordEphesians6]

Seeing as you are happy to piggyback ride on BTC flawed thesis instead of answering directly with regard to the HEAT that you generated. Let's have look at your primary thesis:

Piggyback? What? Other than that you are yet to explain why Bill's statement is flawed and just keep saying it is entirely flawed in your view. You need to present some sort of historical foundation for Wicca.

Like I said what exactly do you mean by 'I used to dabble in it' ? Please be specific.

I mean that I and a friend of mine did what every Wiccan does. We worked to become more in tune to the magical/divine essence around us, and utilise said essence as we saw fit. We cast spells and lusted after power. We wanted to gain even more power, something that I am not willing to share the specifics of, but am willing to say that it stopped me from practising such wicked things.

Obviously you have very strong feelings about this but the first part of your primary thesis is clearly nonsense. What on earth is 'pure evil' and how does this relate to Wicca?

Pure evil is the privation of pure good. See point three on post seventeen.

Okay. I can understand that you don't have a considerable archive of information to draw from and in your case I am willing to let you get on with that.

I may surprise you yet.

"Wicca is pure evil, I used to dabble in it."

Pure evil is indeed Wicca, as it is not of the Lord it is a privation of the only good there is: that which he encapsulates in his nature. Its rather simple really.

I was also a member at ex-witch and though my then Hyper-Calvinist stance got me the boot, I learned enough about ex-witches to know that not everything in Wicca is wretched.

What is your stance now then? Apostate? LDS? Wiccan?

[headheart]

You say:

I mean that I and a friend of mine did what every Wiccan does. We worked to become more in tune to the magical/divine essence around us, and utilise said essence as we saw fit. We cast spells and lusted after power. We wanted to gain even more power, something that I am not willing to share the specifics of, but am willing to say that it stopped me from practising such wicked things.

Ah_______ their in lies the problem. So you were a seeker but did you ever receive proper teaching in the fundamentals of Wicca?

Here are a few excepts for you to consider based on my research :

‘Witchcraft or Wicca is not a cult. We do not proclaim ourselves to be spokespersons for the divine or try to get others to follow us as their leaders.

We do not worship Satan or consort with Demons. Satan is a Christian creation and they can keep him. We do not need a paranoid creation of supreme evil and eternal damnation to scare us into doing the right thing and helping others. We choose to do the right thing and love our brothers and sisters because it IS the right thing and it feels good to do it. I suppose it is a maturity thing.

We do not sacrifice animals or humans because that would violate our basic tenant of “Harm None.” Anyone who does and claims to be a Wiccan or a Witch is lying.

We have no need to steal or control the life force of another to achieve mystical or supernatural powers. We draw our energy from within, our personal relationship with the divine and nature.

We do not use the forces of nature or the universe to hex or cast spells on others. Again, “Harm None” is the whole of the law.’

From: The Lighter Side by Eric Sawyer / From a discussion at the Celtic Connection.

'From the beginning I was very upfront about my reasons for being on TCC Forums and as a result I found them to be very friendly but cautious because of trolls.
After a quick introduction I visited the Arts, Literature and Music forum and then opened up a post which generated more than enough information on the subject of Wicca ‘n Witchcraft.

I asked three questions.

Is Wicca a religion with a set creed ?

If no, what is consistenly believed among Wiccans ?

If yes, what is the creed ?

What follows is only a summary of the responses and replies to my questions, as the forum is for members only.(Private)

Though I am not going to go into the details of our friendly discussion, I am happy to share my list of 9 possible topics which I gleaned from our discussion, topics which I think might be helpful in understanding Wicca.

1. Wiccan Belief.
2. Wiccan Principle.
3. Working Tool Association.
4. Working Tool Use.
5. Magical Responsibility.

6. Wiccan Rede.
a. It’s Meaning
b. Basic Practical Guidelines.

7. The Personal Self-Dedication Rite.
8. Details of the further training.
9. A description of the three degrees.

Apart from a colossal list of books that I was referred to, it was indicated that I “seek” for “Wicca is a seeking religion.” I was also informed that there were three books that might be helpful in giving me a better understanding of ‘Wicca’

1. “A Witches’ Bible” by Janet & Stewart Farrar
2. “Drawing Down The Moon” by Margot Adler
3. “Wicca” – A Guide For The Solitary Practitioner by Scott Cunningham (Includes Author’s Book of Shadows)

There was also mention of Raymond Buckland’s “Complete Book of Witchcraft” and a general consensus that ‘Wicca’ was started by Gerald Gardener in the early nineteen fifties. (I’ll try to add more details about this and others in subsequent linked posts.) I’m hoping to start separate posts, discussing each of the 9 topics.(above)'

From: Witchraft Exposed (Part 2) Reexamined! by Eric Sawyer

Pure evil is the privation of pure good. See point three on post seventeen.

I'm going to leave Durthorin to reply to you as you've included both Sparko's and his comments in this regard. You might have to wait a while but I'm sure in due course he'll reply to you, when he is ready.

I may surprise you yet.

I'm sure you will.

Pure evil is indeed Wicca, as it is not of the Lord it is a privation of the only good there is: that which he encapsulates in his nature. Its rather simple really.

'I'm going to leave Durthorin to reply to you as you've included both Sparko's and his comments in this regard. You might have to wait a while but I'm sure in due course he'll reply to you, when he is ready.'

What is your stance now then? Apostate? LDS? Wiccan?

Neither. I'm a Smeagologist.

Peace,
Eric.

[Durthorin]

No historical evidence? Really? So why do people like Mike Licona, Gary Habermas, William Lane Craig, NT Wright, to name a few, write entire volumes on the historicity of the resurrection? Also why do critical scholars accept that same historical evidence ?

But they don't. That a man named Jesus may have existed, yes.. that he rose from the dead and this was confirmed positively not. The only ones who accept the Resurrection as a fact are strangely enough .. Christians.

Blessed Be, Dur

[Catholicity]

Wicca is what one might call Gardenerian Practice. That said.....in the occult, I was a solitary, anti-Gardenarian. So I wouldn't be one to answer any questions about Wicca. life has taught me that I don't believe that the teenage-young adult population who seeks after Wicca/Gardenarian practice is evil/demonic/power thirsty. I think often they are hurt, agnostic seeking young teens/adults looking for something greater to assist them in life. Many may have been raised in and hurt by the church. Well this is my personal experience.

[Sparko]

But they don't. That a man named Jesus may have existed, yes.. that he rose from the dead and this was confirmed positively not. The only ones who accept the Resurrection as a fact are strangely enough .. Christians.

Blessed Be, Dur

well gee Dur, if you accepted the Resurrection, wouldn't you be a Christian too? Why would someone accept the ressurection and not be a Christian?

but you are also wrong in claiming that his resurrection is not historical evidence. Of course it is. It was written by eye witnesses. The church itself started AFTER Jesus died. Why would it start if he stayed dead, if it is based on his resurrection? Apparently a lot of people believed it was true at the time and many wrote about it. We have no refutations of it either. It is historical evidence.

[SwordEphesians6]

But they don't. That a man named Jesus may have existed, yes.. that he rose from the dead and this was confirmed positively not. The only ones who accept the Resurrection as a fact are strangely enough .. Christians.

Blessed Be, Dur

Probably because once you realise the resurrection is a historical fact, you have no choice but to profess Christ as Lord. Take Lee Strobel for instance.

[Durthorin]

Let me begin in a certain fashion so that those who don't know me will know where I was, where I walked and how I came here. Was I always Pagan/Wicca, No once long ago I was Christian/Southern Baptist. A Sunday school teacher among other things and what I think of as devote in my faith. But over years and over certain crisis in my life I found myself looking at my faith.. not just that cursory inspection but looking deeply at what it was in in my life, what it did and what it accomplished in the lives of others. At a particular point almost 30 some odd years ago.. I found myself under the sky asking for the Gods to give me and answer and the Goddess did. I have followed this path every since. Some may ask why, in my mind in my spirit its not a question, my Goddess is real, she has healed me and helped me, lifted me up and supported me over 30 years. I have been dead on an operating table and told after I came back I would never walk or lift my arm by science.. and then prayed and to Her, felt Her and within three months was running 3 miles each morning and lifting weights. I have raised two healthy happy children into adulthood, one who follows my path and is in the Air Force, the other more eclectic working on her doctorate while being marred to the same woman for over 35 years. this is all to point out that I have had life experience, I am not some weird flake hugging trees nor am I somewhat divorced from reality, My hobby is the study of military history so I am no stranger to research.

1) We first need to recognise we are all acting on presuppositions here. If you don't want Christains to point to the Bible then you are going to have to give a reason as to why you reject its historicty. The resurrection of Christ Jesus is the most well documented fact of the past two millinia and has effected millions of people in various ways. You must give a foundation for Wicca for it even to be considered legitimate. We have ours, the resurrection, though there are many other stones in the archway that rely on it as a capstone, such as prophecy, miracles and Christian testimony today.

Agreed and yours is that the resurrection of Christ Jesus is fact. It isn't, it is to use a phrase "a reputed event", an event reputed to have taken place only by those who have a vested interest in it. Other sources report Christians saying it took place, they do not support the event actually took place. An here we get into one of the primary differences between Pagan and Christian religions, yours is a religion based on a creed which demands belief in an event. If not all of Christianity is a lie and means nothing. ignoring that as a system of behavior, morals and ethics.. the Resurrection is not required. While most Pagan faiths are about what you do. So we are in essence starting from two separate world views.

We need to understand what "good" and "evil" are in an objective sense. For anything to be good or evil it must be defined by a necessary being which holds good within its nature such as the Lord does. Anything that is then evil follows to be a privation of said good, and thus displeasing to the goodness of the nature of God. I would be interested to know how Wiccans define good and evil, as when I was once dabbling in said Wiccan practices the only thing any of us cared about was our own selfish desires to become more powerful.

An again we hit the problem of world view, I do not define Good or Evil in relationship to your God. To me for example the genocide ordered by God is by the nature of the act, evil.. therefore ipso facto, the God who ordered it is evil. Therefore using him as a touchstone to define good fails. As for dabbling, to quote a Christian friend, Dabblers are a curse on all faiths.. One does not dabble in a faith.. one commits to it follows it, studies it, learns it, prays about it and in the end allows it to change your life. A dabbler by his nature is "looking" for what that faith will give him... and wrong attitude usually results in wrong result. In Wicca or in Christianity.

Blessed Be Dur.

PS: My time is limited and I will respond as time permits, but one reason I stopped lurking about here is I simply did not have the spare time to spend.. so bear with me if the response is days in coming rather than hours.

[Durthorin]

Don't you think it's a bit disingenuous to lump in the foundation of Wicca which was invented in the 20th century with "most Pagan faiths", some (mostly the dead ones) of which are quite ancient?

Not really. How do you define Pagan? Hinduism? Is a Buddhist Pagan? By some Christian definitions any faith not Christian is "Pagan" An Wicca is borrows from older theology variations an from other existing Pagan faiths.. at its core again, Wicca is not about who you believe in but "how you live."

Blessed Be, Dur

[Catholicity]

Darth, Wicca is definately a pagan belief system, however you think of it. Gardener borrowed a lot from Crowley, Celtic, and various Mythologies. Wicca is kind of a Hodgepodge of Paganism. In fact I think its referenced in the "Neopaganism" movement. Pagan the word actually means country dweller, however more often it is associated with polytheism or indigenous religion. Wicca being part of a new aspect of polytheistic religions is appropriately called "neopagan"

[Durthorin]

well gee Dur, if you accepted the Resurrection, wouldn't you be a Christian too? Why would someone accept the ressurection and not be a Christian?

but you are also wrong in claiming that his resurrection is not historical evidence. Of course it is. It was written by eye witnesses. The church itself started AFTER Jesus died. Why would it start if he stayed dead, if it is based on his resurrection? Apparently a lot of people believed it was true at the time and many wrote about it. We have no refutations of it either. It is historical evidence.

Well, since I was a Christian, past tense. I at one point in my younger years did accept it. Actually the majority of people up till Constantine in fact didn't believe it. I think the figures were (pardon spelling) Diocletian's reign as emperor they were like 10% of the empire mostly in the cities. An that was about 300AD. They were the largest monotheistic cult of the time no doubt and there are a number of historians who wrote things derogatory to the Christian belief system, unfortunately what we have of those texts is fragmentary as the process which preserved the texts of that period was centered around the church an it can be assumed they didn't really see a reason to preserve thought critical of their faith.

Blessed be, Dur

[Durthorin]

Darth, Wicca is definately a pagan belief system, however you think of it. Gardener borrowed a lot from Crowley, Celtic, and various Mythologies. Wicca is kind of a Hodgepodge of Paganism. In fact I think its referenced in the "Neopaganism" movement. Pagan the word actually means country dweller, however more often it is associated with polytheism or indigenous religion. Wicca being part of a new aspect of polytheistic religions is appropriately called "neopagan"

Thank you, quite accurate. Blessed Be, Dur

[SwordEphesians6]

An here we get into one of the primary differences between Pagan and Christian religions, yours is a religion based on a creed which demands belief in an event. If not all of Christianity is a lie and means nothing. ignoring that as a system of behavior, morals and ethics.. the Resurrection is not required. While most Pagan faiths are about what you do. So we are in essence starting from two separate world views.

In other words you can't base your faith on anything save your own personal experience? Christian sources reporting the resurrection of Christ also report that the Jews accepted the body was gone. Taking in all the factors, such as the elite guards at the tomb, the Roman wax seal and the huge boulder then Christ must have risen. Another way of putting what you just said: "Christianity relies on history, with Wicca we just do what we do."

An again we hit the problem of world view, I do not define Good or Evil in relationship to your God. To me for example the genocide ordered by God is by the nature of the act, evil.. therefore ipso facto, the God who ordered it is evil. Therefore using him as a touchstone to define good fails.

The flip side to this is that you yourself worship a contingent goddess who relies on some other absolute truth in order to even make the claim that an act is evil by its own nature. In the Christian God, we have all that is good encapsulated in His nature - making Him a necessary being. Also I'd like you to point out to me where this genocide took place, though I'm sure you are referring to Joshua where there is no such event.

Yes I dabbled and fine, I don't claim to know more than you on this topic Dur so I shall cease mentioning it.

That is great you have such a nice family - though you should beware Galatians 1:8 (yes I know you do not believe it.)