What is REALLY at issue with the Same-Sex Marriage debate?

[Cerebrum123]

it's actually a covenant, not a contract.

Isn't a covenant basically the same thing as a contract?

[Sparko]

Isn't a covenant basically the same thing as a contract?

yah, but usually in a religious context, as in a pledge or an agreement made with or before God.

[Vivian]

Marriage is a man and a woman who are joined together as husband and wife by God and become one flesh, one family, one unit. Just because Genesis didn't mention a specific ceremony doesn't mean they were not married - it does call Eve "his wife" so it is clear that they were married. After all Eve WAS made from Adam's flesh, and he said that she was bone of his bones and flesh of his flesh. He was recognizing her as his wife, the wife that God made specifically for him.

It is helpful to look at the Hebrew and not just take the English translation as it is.

The word that is translated as wife is the Hebrew word for woman. The english/latin translators took liberty in deciding when it should be wife and when it should be woman. But in Hebrew and to the original Jews it is all 'woman'.

Thus the actual Hebrew in Genesis says that Eve was man's woman - no mention of husband or wife. And if one studies the Hebrew they will also see that this is speaking about way more than gender. In Hebrew, woman or female is receiver and the male or man is giver. And so this is not speaking of a physical gender relationship, but of the Divine Principle of Giving and Receiving - the same Divine Principle that is manifested in Bridegroom and Bride. Paul began to talk of this mystery. Receiver and giver as one is the bliss of God, which is the mystery of God - marriage here an image of that. Such though transcends physical genders. It is the Divine Principle that matters, not the physical reflection of that. Again the Spirit not the Letter, the world to come, where there are no genders just these divine principles, not this world.

So you not see? To say that marriage is limited to man and woman is to say that the Bride of Christ is only woman, that man cannot be the Bride. I tell you that if men can be the Bride of Christ, then two men or two woman can join in unity, in marriage and reflect this same mystery.

The point is, our physical identity, gender, relationships are not Eternal, so they are not absolute. Which is what Jesus kept trying to convince the Pharisees of, who were stuck in ideas like gender.

'Marriage' is a divine principle - whether this is manifested or reflected in two of the same gender as giver and receiver or two of the opposite genders, is really unimportant - it is the manifestation of the Divine Principles or Attributes that matter. This is what Jesus was trying pound into the heads of the Pharisees who had their minds and hearts stuck on temporal things like gender, race, etc. If you want to argue that two men cannot marry, then you are saying that men cannot be the Bride of Christ.

For those who have ears to hear, let them hear.

Shalom!

[Sparko]

It is helpful to look at the Hebrew and not just take the English translation as it is.

The word that is translated as wife is the Hebrew word for woman. The english/latin translators took liberty in deciding when it should be wife and when it should be woman. But to the Jews it is all 'woman'.

Thus the actual Hebrew in Genesis says that Eve was man's woman - no mention of husband or wife. And if one studies the Hebrew they will also see that this is speaking about way more than gender. In Hebrew, woman or female is receiver and the male or man is giver. And so this is not speaking of a physical gender relationship, but of the Divine Principle of Giving and Receiving - the same Divine Principle that is manifested in Bridegroom and Bride. Paul began to talk of this mystery.

The point is, our physical identity, gender, relationships are not Eternal, so they are not absolute. Which is what Jesus kept trying to convince the Pharisees of, who were stuck in ideas like gender.

'Marriage' is a divine principle - whether this is manifested or reflected in two of the same gender as giver and receiver or two of the opposite genders, is really unimportant - it is the manifestation of the Divine Principles or Attributes that matter. This is what Jesus was trying pound into the heads of the Pharisees who had their minds and hearts stuck on temporal things like gender, race, etc.

Shalom!

My goodness, such a load of crap! so now "woman" doesn't even refer to a female?

Like I said, vivian, you just read into the text what you want to believe, no matter how hard you have to twist things to make them fit.

[Vivian]

My goodness, such a load of crap! so now "woman" doesn't even refer to a female?

Like I said, vivian, you just read into the text what you want to believe, no matter how hard you have to twist things to make them fit.

I don't think so. You might wish to do a little research and find that multiple wisdom traditions teach this. I am but a small part of the greater part of humanity who embodies this understanding, for the benefit of humanity.

Is it not obvious with the term Bride that God looks beyond gender? Really now.

[Sparko]

I don't think so. You might wish to do a little research and find that multiple wisdom traditions teach this. I am but a small part of the greater part of humanity who embodies this understanding, for the benefit of humanity.

I have researched it, and the Hebrew. Not some hippie new age sources that you apparently use to help shoehorn your beliefs into the bible.

[Catholicity]

Not to mention if Adam and Eve had kids.....well umm Vivian, when was the last time you took Anatomy and physiology?

[Psychic Missile]

Sounds convenient.

Is that an argument?

[Darth Executor]

Is that an argument?

It's the best the incoherent gibberish you posted deserves. If you're gonna engage in special pleading at least put forth a real argument.

[Psychic Missile]

It's the best the incoherent gibberish you posted deserves. If you're gonna engage in special pleading at least put forth a real argument.

How about it would be a nice thing to do to include a marginalized people in a government program which grants legal benefits to pair bonding when there's no negative consequences?

[Darth Executor]

How about it would be a nice thing to do to include a marginalized people in a government program which grants legal benefits to pair bonding when there's no negative consequences?

What does this have to do with anything? You asked "Is being treated equally before the law not a right?"

Then I threw in your face all the programs liberals support that have inequality before the law baked into them. You then gave me some incoherent special pleading to justify the unjustifiable hypocrisy of calling for "equality before the law" when your entire politial ideology is built on (mostly fabricated nowadays) victimhood and discriminating against people.

[Psychic Missile]

What does this have to do with anything? You asked "Is being treated equally before the law not a right?"

Then I threw in your face all the programs liberals support that have inequality before the law baked into them. You then gave me some incoherent special pleading to justify the unjustifiable hypocrisy of calling for "equality before the law" when your entire politial ideology is built on (mostly fabricated nowadays) victimhood and discriminating against people.

I thought you meant in regards to the larger issue. Equality before the law is opposed by legal boundaries, like I said. In other words, inequality before the law exists because some people being raised above others. In terms of the programs you listed, those apply to disadvantaged people. They lack power in some other means. Barring homosexuals from getting married takes a culturally advantaged people (heterosexuals) and extends to them a legal advantage.

[Darth Executor]

I thought you meant in regards to the larger issue. Equality before the law is opposed by legal boundaries, like I said.

Of course it is. Which is what makes "equality before the law" a stupid and hypocritical thing to bring up for someone of your ideology.

In other words, inequality before the law exists because some people being raised above others.

Indeed. For example, a low or no income person is being raised above others in the eyes of the law and as a result receives considerable monetary and tax benefits.

In terms of the programs you listed, those apply to disadvantaged people. They lack power in some other means.

Yeah, means which have nothing to do with equality before the law.

Barring homosexuals from getting married takes a culturally advantaged people (heterosexuals) and extends to them a legal advantage.

Homosexuals are not barred from getting married. Heterosexuals are not extended a legal advantage either, as the legal benefits can be acquired in other ways. At best they are extended a monetary advantage since it's presumably cheaper to get a marriage license than draft other legal contracts in lieu of it.

[Vivian]

Not to mention if Adam and Eve had kids.....well umm Vivian, when was the last time you took Anatomy and physiology?

Hello Catholicity,

Not sure what this response has to do with what was shared. I don't think anything I said had anything to do with Adam and Eve having kids or not having kids? I was speaking of the Divine Mysteries that are revealed in the Hebrew words, phrases, names etc behind Adam, man, and his woman, Eve. Perhaps you did not understand my post?

Perhaps you are assuming because the word that is translated as wife actually means woman that this means that Adam and Eve had no children? Not sure what one has to do with the other???

Also, you are Catholic, yes? My daughter attends a Catholic school and was taught that the official church position is that they story of Adam and Eve is a myth, pointing to mysteries. I do not know what the official church stand is on the children of Adam and Eve? If they are myths too?

As for me, I understand Adam and Eve to represent both Divine Mysteries and actual males and females born into this world, actually having children - the children too both being in the physical and pointing to mysteries that are revealed in the Hebrew.

Shalom!

[Sparko]

what the heck kind of catholic school does your daughter go to? I have never heard of the Catholic official position being that Adam and Eve and the Garden were myth.