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Oregon approves measure requiring insurers to cover abortion

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
    It's a freedom thing as well as let's not make other people pay for your (im)moral decisions.
    It's not a freedom thing. That's just the smoke screen for not having to cover certain services. It's the same sorta nonsense we have to continually fight insurance companies over. Or fight any other major service provider over (hence the current net neutrality fight).


    Health insurance isn't a 'only if you want it' thing. I think you're more aware of this than most. People literally can't afford to maintain health without having insurance, which is partly why I'm against the whole system. I find it mind-boggling that people continually defend companies which intentionally withhold as much coverage as they can and/or charge as much as they can for services you can't avoid needing. And, yes, sometimes that includes abortions.

    Let's not forget, either, that the bill in question provides for religious exemptions. 'Freedom' is preserved.


    I won't even get into the "not make other people pay" bit. That claim is past its sell-by date.
    I'm not here anymore.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
      It's not a freedom thing. That's just the smoke screen for not having to cover certain services. It's the same sorta nonsense we have to continually fight insurance companies over. Or fight any other major service provider over (hence the current net neutrality fight).


      Health insurance isn't a 'only if you want it' thing. I think you're more aware of this than most. People literally can't afford to maintain health without having insurance, which is partly why I'm against the whole system. I find it mind-boggling that people continually defend companies which intentionally withhold as much coverage as they can and/or charge as much as they can for services you can't avoid needing. And, yes, sometimes that includes abortions.

      Let's not forget, either, that the bill in question provides for religious exemptions. 'Freedom' is preserved.


      I won't even get into the "not make other people pay" bit. That claim is past its sell-by date.
      Freedom of association.

      I completely agree the system is mucked up. Making insurance companies pay for more and more things will not solve that - deregulating, allowing border crossing, separating warranty from insurance - those will help. But ultimately, it's the pricing contracts that have to go. Insurers shouldn't have to pay for more things - they should have to pay all legitimate (got medical license) providers for legitimate claims - and prove that claims are actually invalid before being able to deny.

      No networks, no referrals, no pre-certification. If you want the customer to price shop, incentivise it on the consumer side. Bob wants to buy insurance from another state, he can - and his claims will be covered.

      But if you ditch the networks, the warranty side will change the most - which is exactly what needs to happen.
      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

      My Personal Blog

      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
        Honestly, the whole "You disagree with me on healthcare legislation? You sadistic murderer!" thing is a little tired at this point. I deduct 10 points; try to go for some creativity next time.
        If you are against making healthcare accessable to all, if you want to go back to a time when people just suffered and then died because they couldn't afford to see a doctor or to maintain whatever disease they were unlucky enough to be predisposed to, or to come down with, then you are just as sadistic a murderer as you believe that pro choicers are. Actually more so, since there is no disagreement amongst us that the already born are human beings. Thats why I can never take you pro-Lifers serious, you're usually hypocrites who care little about the lives of those who we both agree to be living human beings.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
          You didn't, actually. You have your one guy vs his one guy. Your guy just leveraged the group he was in. The site you cited makes that clear...
          The entire AMA approved and delivered that speech.
          That's what
          - She

          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
          - Stephen R. Donaldson

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          • #65
            Originally posted by JimL View Post
            If you are against making healthcare accessable to all, if you want to go back to a time when people just suffered and then died because they couldn't afford to see a doctor or to maintain whatever disease they were unlucky enough to be predisposed to, or to come down with, then you are just as sadistic a murderer as you believe that pro choicers are. Actually more so, since there is no disagreement amongst us that the already born are human beings. Thats why I can never take you pro-Lifers serious, you're usually hypocrites who care little about the lives of those who we both agree to be living human beings.
            Healthcare IS accessible to all. INSURANCE isn't. Anyway, healthcare is a goods and services exchange between doctor and patient. It's no different than forcing a restaurant to feed a homeless man for free because the homeless man needs food to survive. I'd be willing to wager that you'd have no problem with THAT becoming a law either, would you?
            That's what
            - She

            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
            - Stephen R. Donaldson

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
              Healthcare IS accessible to all. INSURANCE isn't. Anyway, healthcare is a goods and services exchange between doctor and patient. It's no different than forcing a restaurant to feed a homeless man for free because the homeless man needs food to survive. I'd be willing to wager that you'd have no problem with THAT becoming a law either, would you?
              I think the whole insurance thing can be simply stated as:

              "Be careful what you wish for because you just might get it."

              Imagine the insurance companies, that delay treatment, hoping you die before they have to pay being given the power of the government to enforce their will upon you. If someone doesn't think this could happen just ask the couple trying to seek treatment for their son in the U.K. The power of the state is being used to strip these parents of their right to decide healthcare choices for their son. I wonder how Jimmy and co would react if it was a private insurance company trying to do that...
              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

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              • #67
                Um, Marketplace plans do that NOW. PPO's are almost non-existent, pre-certs required for darn near everything - the companies are trying to keep people from actually using htie plans.
                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                My Personal Blog

                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                Quill Sword

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                  Um, Marketplace plans do that NOW. PPO's are almost non-existent, pre-certs required for darn near everything - the companies are trying to keep people from actually using htie plans.
                  I have a CDHP tjat doesn't require referrals or precerts.
                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  - Stephen R. Donaldson

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                    I have a CDHP tjat doesn't require referrals or precerts.
                    Yeah, I concede that there are some decent plans - not mine - but they are getting rarer. Most MP plans are HMO or EPO.
                    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                    My Personal Blog

                    My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                    Quill Sword

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                      Healthcare IS accessible to all. INSURANCE isn't.
                      Republican talking point! If insurance is beyond the ability of millions to afford, then it isn't accessible.


                      Anyway, healthcare is a goods and services exchange between doctor and patient. It's no different than forcing a restaurant to feed a homeless man for free because the homeless man needs food to survive. I'd be willing to wager that you'd have no problem with THAT becoming a law either, would you?
                      As a country we can afford to feed the homeless and the needy, and we do. We can also make healthcare accessible to all.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        Republican talking point! If insurance is beyond the ability of millions to afford, then it isn't accessible.



                        As a country we can afford to feed the homeless and the needy, and we do. We can also make healthcare accessible to all.
                        What if providers could charge more reasonable fees so that people could afford to pay out of pocket - wouldn't that also make healthcare more accessible?
                        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                        My Personal Blog

                        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                        Quill Sword

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                          What if providers could charge more reasonable fees so that people could afford to pay out of pocket - wouldn't that also make healthcare more accessible?
                          Providers have no interests in charging more reasonable fees, they are not concerned with people or their health, their only concern is how much profit they can squeeze out of them, and if more people dying is the best route to that goal, then the Insurance Industry will happily take that route..

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            Providers have no interests in charging more reasonable fees, they are not concerned with people or their health, their only concern is how much profit they can squeeze out of them, and if more people dying is the best route to that goal, then the Insurance Industry will happily take that route..
                            Yet I'm dying (literally) because state insurance screws over any doctor that takes OHP patients with low flat fees which make them less likely to take patients like me. I need a pain management specialist, a rheumatologist, a neurologist and a neurosurgeon and I don't have access to any of them because after being screwed over and the high demand of patients thanks to ACA, they stopped accepting my insurance. Tell me again how healthcare is more accessible due to government interference?
                            I am Punkinhead.

                            "I have missed you, Oh Grand High Priestess of the Order of the Stirring Pot"

                            ~ Cow Poke aka CP aka Creacher aka ke7ejx's apprentice....

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                              What if providers could charge more reasonable fees so that people could afford to pay out of pocket - wouldn't that also make healthcare more accessible?
                              My Sister and her husband had refused to buy health insurance until this year because it was cheaper for them not to. They always told the Doctor or Hospital that they were paying cash upfront. They always got a better deal that I did with my insurance. Usually the contracted price is (roughly) 70% - 75% of the full price. Paying cash up front, they usually get 50% - 60% off the full price.
                              "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                              "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                Providers have no interests in charging more reasonable fees, they are not concerned with people or their health, their only concern is how much profit they can squeeze out of them, and if more people dying is the best route to that goal, then the Insurance Industry will happily take that route..
                                If insurance were not there to pay the high fees, most providers would have to move to other schedules.

                                The U&C are set very high so that the negotiated rates with insurers come into line with the actual costs. Eliminate the price fixing - which is what it actually is - and the providers would be able to price rationally.

                                Add incentives to price shop and providers would need to become competitive.
                                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                                My Personal Blog

                                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                                Quill Sword

                                Comment

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