Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Oregon approves measure requiring insurers to cover abortion

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    This would be one of the more egregious examples of eisegesis that I have seen. I'm surprised that you were capable of it. Still you did have a bit of help from the translators.
    FF copied that from the link he provided at the end. He isn't that clever.
    That's what
    - She

    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
    - Stephen R. Donaldson

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by ke7ejx View Post
      And no, this is a very new phenomenon for Oregon's legislature. Brown is going to shoot herself in the foot if this keeps up.
      Do you think so? I was under the impression she had a fair bit of support.
      I'm not here anymore.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
        Do you think so? I was under the impression she had a fair bit of support.
        Could well be, it is Oregon after all.
        Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
          Thou Shall NOT Murder.


          I think He made Himself perfectly clear.
          A clockmaker cuts and polishes the first gearwheel of a new clock and then goes home to bed. The next day he finds it stolen. Did the thief steel the clock being made?
          “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
          “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
          “not all there” - you know who you are

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
            A clockmaker cuts and polishes the first gearwheel of a new clock and then goes home to bed. The next day he finds it stolen. Did the thief steel the clock being made?
            If the gearwheel is capable of dividing itself and growing into the clock, yes.
            That's what
            - She

            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
            - Stephen R. Donaldson

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
              Do you think so? I was under the impression she had a fair bit of support.
              In Portland, yes. But a majority of the State she alienates. Remember last fall when that big tax bill failed? The first thing she did was announce she was closing the sanitarium in Junction City- never mind that it's the only mental hospital in Oregon. Even the liberals were freaking out over that. She still occasionally pulls out that card in the occasional speech.
              I am Punkinhead.

              "I have missed you, Oh Grand High Priestess of the Order of the Stirring Pot"

              ~ Cow Poke aka CP aka Creacher aka ke7ejx's apprentice....

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by ke7ejx View Post
                In Portland, yes. But a majority of the State she alienates. Remember last fall when that big tax bill failed? The first thing she did was announce she was closing the sanitarium in Junction City- never mind that it's the only mental hospital in Oregon. Even the liberals were freaking out over that. She still occasionally pulls out that card in the occasional speech.
                The polarization of this state is weird to me. It's like Portland is this major center of gravity with a lot of other stuff floating out in the rest of the state. Corvallis seems to echo Portland a lot, but that might just be the university. I haven't been here long enough (or in enough places) to get a feel for everywhere else. Maybe that will change some now that I'm working in Salem.

                Threatening to close the mental hospital blows my mind. I thought mental health was a major focus for pretty much everyone here.
                I'm not here anymore.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                  The polarization of this state is weird to me. It's like Portland is this major center of gravity with a lot of other stuff floating out in the rest of the state. Corvallis seems to echo Portland a lot, but that might just be the university. I haven't been here long enough (or in enough places) to get a feel for everywhere else. Maybe that will change some now that I'm working in Salem.

                  Threatening to close the mental hospital blows my mind. I thought mental health was a major focus for pretty much everyone here.
                  Hehe, Multnomah County has the population concentration needed. I live a little further south of you and it too is a liberal town (Thank you, University of Oregon). However, I grew up in Redmond in the middle of the state that is predominiately conservative. You'll come to find that the Cascades acts as an Iron Curtain with the western half of the state being predominately liberal while the eastern half is conservative. As you said, our polarization is weird.

                  Regarding the mental hospital: http://nbc16.com/news/local/governor...-junction-city

                  and

                  http://projects.registerguard.com/rg...dents.html.csp
                  I am Punkinhead.

                  "I have missed you, Oh Grand High Priestess of the Order of the Stirring Pot"

                  ~ Cow Poke aka CP aka Creacher aka ke7ejx's apprentice....

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by ke7ejx View Post
                    Hehe, Multnomah County has the population concentration needed. I live a little further south of you and it too is a liberal town (Thank you, University of Oregon). However, I grew up in Redmond in the middle of the state that is predominiately conservative. You'll come to find that the Cascades acts as an Iron Curtain with the western half of the state being predominately liberal while the eastern half is conservative. As you said, our polarization is weird.
                    I'd already picked up on the 'Iron Curtain' thing, but I expected that to be the case, anyway. The general tendency in the US is for predominantly rural areas to be conservative while cities are liberal. The weird part of Oregon is the distribution of the cities relative to the state as a whole. Most of that, I assume, is due to normal clustering along major trade routes (I-5). You see the same thing in Texas, except there are a lot more interstates, and they're more centrally located.


                    Weird. Kinda looks like she just saw a big chunk of money she could one-shot because it'd be easier.
                    I'm not here anymore.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      What can we do about it? What should be the Christian response?
                      All this hysteria over abortion is a modern phenomenon. "Shortly after the Supreme Court made their landmark decision on the issue in Roe v. Wade (1973), influential Baptist minister W.A. Criswell, pastor of First Baptist in Dallas, TX, and predecessor to FOX News darling Robert Jeffress, said: I have always felt that it was only after a child was born and had a life separate from its mother that it became an individual person, and it has always, therefore, seemed to me that what is best for the mother and for the future should be allowed". Cited Patheos. Admittedly he later changed his mind, but this was nevertheless a common attitude among Evangelicals until the late 1970s, when turned into a political issue and a litmus test for "true Evangelicals". The public debate of abortion made it a highly charged political issue in the US, which it had never been before.
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                        All this hysteria over abortion is a modern phenomenon. "Shortly after the Supreme Court made their landmark decision on the issue in Roe v. Wade (1973), influential Baptist minister W.A. Criswell, pastor of First Baptist in Dallas, TX, and predecessor to FOX News darling Robert Jeffress, said: I have always felt that it was only after a child was born and had a life separate from its mother that it became an individual person, and it has always, therefore, seemed to me that what is best for the mother and for the future should be allowed". Cited Patheos. Admittedly he later changed his mind, but this was nevertheless a common attitude among Evangelicals until the late 1970s, when turned into a political issue and a litmus test for "true Evangelicals". The public debate of abortion made it a highly charged political issue in the US, which it had never been before.
                        Yet another issue God, if he exists, seems to have failed to adress properly. But again it probably made sure the theologians had a job arguing both forth and back while big decisions were made in real life with real implications.
                        "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Charles View Post
                          Yet another issue God, if he exists, seems to have failed to adress properly. But again it probably made sure the theologians had a job arguing both forth and back while big decisions were made in real life with real implications.
                          Well I suppose, from God's point of view, any publicity is better than no publicity. If nobody believes in him he will die...like Tinkerbell.
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                            All this hysteria over abortion is a modern phenomenon.
                            What do you mean by "modern"?


                            Source: http://studentsforlife.org/prolifefacts/history-of-abortion/

                            • 1856 Dr. Horatio Storer establishes a national drive through the American Medical Association to make all abortions illegal. Prior to this, first trimester abortions were legal or a misdemeanor in most states.

                              1873 Supported by the American Medical Association (AMA), the Comstock Act bans the dissemination by mail of information on abortion or artificial contraceptives.

                              1875 In a speech called “Social Purity,” suffragist and feminist Susan B. Anthony spoke out against abortion, joining many other feminists who decried abortion in the late 19th century.

                              1890 Statutes, advocated by the AMA, outlaw abortion unless necessary to save the life of the mother.

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            "Shortly after the Supreme Court made their landmark decision on the issue in Roe v. Wade (1973), influential Baptist minister W.A. Criswell, pastor of First Baptist in Dallas, TX, and predecessor to FOX News darling Robert Jeffress, said: I have always felt that it was only after a child was born and had a life separate from its mother that it became an individual person, and it has always, therefore, seemed to me that what is best for the mother and for the future should be allowed".
                            1960s evangelicals were often pro-choice, yes, but the framework in which they held that position—when abortion was rare and exceptional—no longer pertains. See here for more of why this line of argument - using 1960s views on abortion as a baseline - is reductionist.

                            Admittedly he later changed his mind, but this was nevertheless a common attitude among Evangelicals until the late 1970s, when turned into a political issue and a litmus test for "true Evangelicals". The public debate of abortion made it a highly charged political issue in the US, which it had never been before.
                            Yes it had. It was an issue as early as the beginning of the 1800s, and became a legal issue in 1821.

                            Source: http://www.abortionessay.com/pro-life-physician-horatio-storer-ancestors/


                            Although largely forgotten today, Dr. Horatio Robinson Storer (1830-1922) was one of the most influential figures of the 19th century. He made large contributions to gynecology and abdominal surgery and substantial contributions to natural history, sanitation, and numismatics. However, the accomplishments of Dr. Storer that are remembered today, and the ones for which he most wished to be remembered, were related to the suppression of unnecessary intentional abortion.

                            The reader probably will be surprised to learn that induced abortions were common among married Protestant women in 1855 when Horatio Storer began medical practice in Boston. Thanks to his fine training in embryology as a Harvard undergraduate by Louis Rodolphe Agassiz and Jeffries Wyman, Storer was acutely aware that abortion at any time after conception was the loss of a human life.

                            He started the 'physicians' crusade against abortion' in 1857, a little more than a year after his father, David Humphreys Storer, Professor of Obstetrics and Medical Jurisprudence at the Harvard Medical School, pointed out the large increase in induced abortion and its deleterious effects on women's health. Horatio quickly enlisted the young American Medical Association in the effort and the AMA Committee on Criminal Abortion was created with Horatio as its chairman. Horatio himself selected seven of the most prominent American physicians from all sections of the country to round out the Committee. The Committee's Report was presented at the 12th Annual Meeting of the Association at Louisville in May 1859.

                            The following Resolutions, which largely summarized the content of the Report, were unanimously agreed to by the membership.

                            •'Resolved, That while physicians have long been united in condemning the act of producing abortion, at every period of gestation, except as necessary for preserving the life of either mother or child, it has become the duty of this Association, in view of the prevalence and increasing frequency of the crime, publicly to enter an earnest and solemn protest against such unwarrantable destruction of human life.
                            •'Resolved, That in pursuance of the grand and noble calling we profess, the saving of human lives, and of the sacred responsibilities thereby devolving upon us, the Association present this subject to the attention of the several legislative assemblies of the Union, with the prayer that the laws by which the crime of procuring abortion is attempted to be controlled may be revised, and that such other action may be taken in the premises as they in their wisdom may deem necessary.
                            •'Resolved, That the Association request the zealous co-operation of the various State Medical Societies in pressing this subject upon the legislatures of their respective States, and that the President and Secretaries of the Association are hereby authorized to carry out, by memorial, these resolutions.'

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            Source: http://www.abortionessay.com/horatio-march-criminal-abortion-1859/



                            AMA Report on Criminal Abortion, 1859

                            The committee appointed in May, 1857, to investigate the subject of Criminal Abortion, with a view to its general suppression, have attended to the duty assigned them, and would present the following report:

                            The heinous guilt of criminal abortion, however viewed by the community, is everywhere acknowledged by medical men.

                            Its frequency - among all classes of society, rich and poor, single and married - most physicians have been led to suspect; very many, from their own experience of its deplorable results, have known. Were any doubt, however, entertained upon this point, it is at once removed by comparisons of the present with our past rates of increase in population, the size of our families, the statistics of our foetal deaths, by themselves considered, and relatively to the births and to the general mortality. The evidence from these sources is too constant and too overwhelming to be explained on the ground that pregnancies are merely prevented; or on any other supposition than that of fearfully extended crime.

                            The causes of this general demoralization are manifold. There are three of them, however, and they are the most important, with which the medical profession have especially to do.

                            The first of these causes is a wide-spread popular ignorance of the true character of the crime--a belief, even among mothers themselves, that the foetus is not alive till after the period of quickening.

                            The second of the agents alluded to is the fact that the profession themselves are frequently supposed careless of foetal life; not that its respectable members are ever knowingly and intentionally accessory to the unjustifiable commission of abortion, but that they are thought at times to omit precautions or measures that might prevent the occurrence of so unfortunate an event.

                            The third reason of the frightful extent of this crime is found in the grave defects of our laws, both common and statute, as regards the independent and actual existence of the child before birth, as a living being. These errors, which are sufficient in most instances to prevent conviction, are based, and only based, upon mistaken and exploded medical dogmas. With strange inconsistency, the law fully acknowledges the foetus in utero and its inherent rights, for civil purposes; while personally and as criminally affected, it fails to recognize it, and to its life as yet denies all protection.

                            Abundant proof upon each of these points has been prepared by the Committee, and is elsewhere* [Report Footnote: *North American Medico-Chirurgical Review, Jan. 1859, et seq.] being published to the profession; but as the statements now made are almost axiomatic, recapitulation would be here wearisome and is unnecessary.

                            Our duty is plain. If, by any act, we can effect aught towards the suppression of this crime, it must be done. In questions of abstract right, the medical profession do not acknowledge such words as expediency, time service, cowardice. We are the physical guardians of women; we, alone, thus far, of their offspring in utero. The case is here of life or death--the life or death of thousands--and it depends, almost wholly, upon ourselves.

                            As a profession we are unanimous in our condemnation of the crime. Mere resolutions to this effect, and nothing more, are therefore useless, evasive, and cruel.

                            © Copyright Original Source

                            That's what
                            - She

                            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                            - Stephen R. Donaldson

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

                              What do you mean by "modern"?


                              Source: http://studentsforlife.org/prolifefacts/history-of-abortion/

                              • 1856 Dr. Horatio Storer establishes a national drive through the American Medical Association to make all abortions illegal. Prior to this, first trimester abortions were legal or a misdemeanor in most states.

                                1873 Supported by the American Medical Association (AMA), the Comstock Act bans the dissemination by mail of information on abortion or artificial contraceptives.

                                1875 In a speech called “Social Purity,” suffragist and feminist Susan B. Anthony spoke out against abortion, joining many other feminists who decried abortion in the late 19th century.

                                1890 Statutes, advocated by the AMA, outlaw abortion unless necessary to save the life of the mother.

                              © Copyright Original Source




                              <Snipped>
                              What is modern is the hysteria surrounding the issue as clearly displayed by your immoderate rant. And yes, you can join up a carefully selected list of anti-abortion quotes (which you no doubt have on file) to make it seem as though a rigid anti-abortion stance was always the standard Evangelical view, but it wasn’t in fact.

                              Previously the issue was open to rational discussion and numerous Evangelicals were pro-choice as evidenced by the quote from Baptist minister W.A. Criswell, pastor of First Baptist in Dallas, TX. Shortly after the Supreme Court made their landmark decision on the issue in Roe v. Wade (1973), this influential Baptist minister said: “I have always felt that it was only after a child was born and had a life separate from its mother that it became an individual person, and it has always, therefore, seemed to me that what is best for the mother and for the future should be allowed".

                              These are very sensible sentiments in my view and in keeping with the traditional Jewish attitude to which Jesus himself probably adhered. It was not until the late 1970's that abortion was turned into the highly charged emotional political issue we see today, thanks to the likes of you.
                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                                What is modern is the hysteria surrounding the issue as clearly displayed by your immoderate rant. And yes, you can join up a carefully selected list of anti-abortion quotes (which you no doubt have on file) to make it seem as though a rigid anti-abortion stance was always the standard Evangelical view, but it wasn’t in fact.

                                Previously the issue was open to rational discussion and numerous Evangelicals were pro-choice as evidenced by the quote from Baptist minister W.A. Criswell, pastor of First Baptist in Dallas, TX. Shortly after the Supreme Court made their landmark decision on the issue in Roe v. Wade (1973), this influential Baptist minister said: “I have always felt that it was only after a child was born and had a life separate from its mother that it became an individual person, and it has always, therefore, seemed to me that what is best for the mother and for the future should be allowed".

                                These are very sensible sentiments in my view and in keeping with the traditional Jewish attitude to which Jesus himself probably adhered. It was not until the late 1970's that abortion was turned into the highly charged emotional political issue we see today, thanks to the likes of you.
                                Translation: I hand-wave away your evidence and merely repeat my baseless assertoin because I have nothing else.

                                Hey Tassy, if Abortion was never an issue until Roe, could it be because most people believed it was wrong and it was illegal?

                                LBGT was never a "highly charged emotional issue" until the gay rights movement either was it? It was just accepted as wrong. Nothing to argue about until the gays made it an issue by trying to normalize it.

                                Abortion wasn't an issue until they legalized it. It was just intrinsic to the society that it was wrong and illegal.

                                and the reason it became an issue is thanks to the likes of liberals.
                                Last edited by Sparko; 07-19-2017, 08:36 AM.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by little_monkey, Yesterday, 04:19 PM
                                16 responses
                                132 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post One Bad Pig  
                                Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                                53 responses
                                353 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Mountain Man  
                                Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                                25 responses
                                112 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                                33 responses
                                197 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Roy
                                by Roy
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                                84 responses
                                361 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post JimL
                                by JimL
                                 
                                Working...
                                X