What is a Christian?

[headheart]

What is a Christian.jpg

Of course everyone knows the title of the book "Why I am Not A Christian" by Richard Carrier and very often those who announce that they are no longer Christian discover later that they were not Christian to begin with.

So widespread is the ignorance, and so many are the misconceptions, of the Christian religion today, that I must begin rather negatively. It is often necessary to demolish before you can build. I am anxious to arrive at the center of Christianity; I am not now concerned with the circumference. What is a Christian in essence?

[shunyadragon]

Why would Carrier not have been a Christian?

Did Carrier discover later that he was not really a Christian when he considered him self a Christian?

A Christian to me is simply one who believes in one of the many versions of the teachings of Jesus and the NT.

[pancreasman]

What is a Christian.jpg

Of course everyone knows the title of the book "Why I am Not A Christian" by Richard Carrier and very often those who announce that they are no longer Christian discover later that they were not Christian to begin with.

So widespread is the ignorance, and so many are the misconceptions, of the Christian religion today, that I must begin rather negatively. It is often necessary to demolish before you can build. I am anxious to arrive at the center of Christianity; I am not now concerned with the circumference. What is a Christian in essence?

Is there some justification for the bolded claim?

[Whag]

What is a Christian.jpg

Of course everyone knows the title of the book "Why I am Not A Christian" by Richard Carrier and very often those who announce that they are no longer Christian discover later that they were not Christian to begin with.

So widespread is the ignorance, and so many are the misconceptions, of the Christian religion today, that I must begin rather negatively. It is often necessary to demolish before you can build. I am anxious to arrive at the center of Christianity; I am not now concerned with the circumference. What is a Christian in essence?

If Christians can be so easily deleted from the book of life for being too liberal, too catholic, or too Protestant, then it's time to revise christianity's much ballyhooed demography which currently stands at 2 billion. Who among those 2 billion are actually Christian?

[headheart]

Why would Carrier not have been a Christian?

Did Carrier discover later that he was not really a Christian when he considered him self a Christian?

A Christian to me is simply one who believes in one of the many versions of the teachings of Jesus and the NT.

Perhaps the quotation will clarify my point to you:

'....to be a Christian is not just to believe the Christian creed. Christianity is not in essence an intellectual system. It is neither a theology nor a philosophy. It is not a creed. To be a Christian is not just to give mental ascent to a string of dogmas, however orthodox and true. You can recite the Apostle's Creed from beginning to end without any mental reservations and still not be a Christian. The best proof of what I am saying is the devil himself. He believes the creed. He knows it is true. But his belief does not make him Christian. As James wrote, "Even the demons believe--and shudder" (Jas. 2: 19). So if we are trusting in our orthodoxy of belief, we may be no better than demons!
Now do not misunderstand me. I am emphatically not saying that intellectual understanding is unimportant. On the contrary, it is vastly important. What I am saying is that it is not enough. By itself it does not make me a Christian. Christianity has a creed, a theology, a philosophy and dogmas; it is none of these things.'

From: Your Confirmation by J.R.W. Stott.

Peace,
Eric.

[pancreasman]

Perhaps the quotation will clarify my point to you:

'....to be a Christian is not just to believe the Christian creed. Christianity is not in essence an intellectual system. It is neither a theology nor a philosophy. It is not a creed. To be a Christian is not just to give mental ascent to a string of dogmas, however orthodox and true. You can recite the Apostle's Creed from beginning to end without any mental reservations and still not be a Christian. The best proof of what I am saying is the devil himself. He believes the creed. He knows it is true. But his belief does not make him Christian. As James wrote, "Even the demons believe--and shudder" (Jas. 2: 19). So if we are trusting in our orthodoxy of belief, we may be no better than demons!
Now do not misunderstand me. I am emphatically not saying that intellectual understanding is unimportant. On the contrary, it is vastly important. What I am saying is that it is not enough. By itself it does not make me a Christian. Christianity has a creed, a theology, a philosophy and dogmas; it is none of these things.'

From: Your Confirmation by J.R.W. Stott.

Peace,
Eric.

And how do we know the unspecified criteria for being a Christian were not met by Richard Carrier (whoever he is) or any other former Christian?

[headheart]

And how do we know the unspecified criteria for being a Christian were not met by Richard Carrier (whoever he is) or any other former Christian?

That's a tough question. Perhaps if we considered the criteria some more as well as read the linked book (in my opening post) or videos, lectures, books, essays and such-like of ex / former Christians or visa-versa, such a thing might be possible. A lot depends on what sort of effort we are willing to put into this.

Peace,
Eric.

[shunyadragon]

Perhaps the quotation will clarify my point to you:

'....to be a Christian is not just to believe the Christian creed. Christianity is not in essence an intellectual system. It is neither a theology nor a philosophy. It is not a creed. To be a Christian is not just to give mental ascent to a string of dogmas, however orthodox and true. You can recite the Apostle's Creed from beginning to end without any mental reservations and still not be a Christian. The best proof of what I am saying is the devil himself. He believes the creed. He knows it is true. But his belief does not make him Christian. As James wrote, "Even the demons believe--and shudder" (Jas. 2: 19). So if we are trusting in our orthodoxy of belief, we may be no better than demons!
Now do not misunderstand me. I am emphatically not saying that intellectual understanding is unimportant. On the contrary, it is vastly important. What I am saying is that it is not enough. By itself it does not make me a Christian. Christianity has a creed, a theology, a philosophy and dogmas; it is none of these things.'

From: Your Confirmation by J.R.W. Stott.

Peace,
Eric.

I agree in essence to the above, but this does not mean that people who left Christianity and became atheist did not at one point believe they were a devoted Christian with a deep personal faith.

Is there any indication that Carrier did not believe this at one point in his life as a Christian?

This indeed is a very narrow

[headheart]

I agree in essence to the above, but this does not mean that people who left Christianity and became atheist did not at one point believe they were a devoted Christian with a deep personal faith.

Is there any indication that Carrier did not believe this at one point in his life as a Christian?

This indeed is a very narrow

A lot depends on your precise definition of both Christianity and Christian. If you follow the line of reasoning I've presented here (post 5) and in 'If Christianity...' (Posts 1 and 5) then one would be able to begin to identify such. Like I said 'A lot depends on what sort of effort we are willing to put into this.'

Peace,
Eric.

[shunyadragon]

A lot depends on your precise definition of both Christianity and Christian. If you follow the line of reasoning I've presented here (post 5) and in 'If Christianity...' (Posts 1 and 5) then one would be able to begin to identify such. Like I said 'A lot depends on what sort of effort we are willing to put into this.'

Peace,
Eric.

This line of reasoning hits at things Paul said that lead many traditional Christians to believe that if one truly believes they will never leave the faith, therefore those that leave the faith did not truly believe.

[pancreasman]

I'm never comfortable with other people determining whether I was or was not a REAL Christian once. I was a devoted and active Christian, valued by my church community, and my own experience of my faith was rich with an interior life that included experiences I would class as mystical. I now interpret those experiences in a different way. I don't see how anyone can suggest my Christianity was somehow deficient without demeaning me, my experience and the communities of which I was a part.

I'm of the opinion that if a person SAYS they are a Christian, lives a life aimed at producing fruit as in Gal 5:22, can assent to the creed and is not mentally incompetent, then they probably ARE a Christian and no one else has the right to suggest otherwise.

The alternative too easily becomes a kind of spiritual elitism.

[headheart]

This line of reasoning hits at things Paul said that lead many traditional Christians to believe that if one truly believes they will never leave the faith, therefore those that leave the faith did not truly believe.

That is an altogether different and extremely complex set of different discussions. If you're referring to "Election" then we are in the zone but "Eternal Preservation" is too much for this thread.

Peace,
Eric.

[headheart]

I'm never comfortable with other people determining whether I was or was not a REAL Christian once. I was a devoted and active Christian, valued by my church community, and my own experience of my faith was rich with an interior life that included experiences I would class as mystical. I now interpret those experiences in a different way. I don't see how anyone can suggest my Christianity was somehow deficient without demeaning me, my experience and the communities of which I was a part.

I'm of the opinion that if a person SAYS they are a Christian, lives a life aimed at producing fruit as in Gal 5:22, can assent to the creed and is not mentally incompetent, then they probably ARE a Christian and no one else has the right to suggest otherwise.

The alternative too easily becomes a kind of spiritual elitism.

It's that one thought (bold) that changes everything.

Peace,
Eric.

[shunyadragon]

That is an altogether different and extremely complex set of different discussions. If you're referring to "Election" then we are in the zone but "Eternal Preservation" is too much for this thread.

Peace,
Eric.

Well, yes specifically I was referring to 'Election,' and possibly 'Eternal Preservation.' I will watch and see where this line of reasoning goes.

[pancreasman]

It's that one thought (bold) that changes everything.

Peace,
Eric.

I think it takes a fair amount to be mentally incompetent, and I certainly would not suggest anyone was just because they held a different metaphysical belief system to me (although I might draw the line at believing that we are governed by reptilian overlords in disguise).