Is Christianity due for a government-imposed Reformation?

[One Bad Pig]

It happened before to make Utah a state and it happened again in 1978 as a response to boycotts and protests

I don't think it's accurate to call either instance (or the topic spawning the thread) a 'reformation', government-imposed or not. The term connotes a change back to a previous condition. Furthermore, while IMO it is unequivocally wrong to use political pressure to effect religious change, what was experienced then and what is being experienced now pales in comparison to the systematic persecution of those who are religiously different common throughout recorded history. We're spoiled.

[lilpixieofterror]

Why will nobody explain what is so bigoted about being opposed to gay marriage?

[OtherCheek]

Why will nobody explain what is so bigoted about being opposed to gay marriage?

I hope I don't drag my own thread off topic with this comment, but here goes.

I think the answer to your question may perhaps be because of the notion of "BORN THAT WAY, AND CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT." I personally don't believe in "born that way" when it comes to any behavior that God condemns. We all have tendencies, weaknesses of the flesh, and proclivities that tempt us more than others, but to say that our behavior can't be helped, is a lazy cop out, IMO, and a way to justify improper behavior.

I don't believe there is a "gene" that UNCONTROLLABLY IMPOSES things such as what sex one is attracted to. Rather than being a gene that IMPOSES this, I rather believe it is a tendency that some are born with such as the tendency to alcohol, drugs, sugar, certain foods, etc. Certain behaviors, unchecked, can lead to addiction, IMO. And addiction destroys freedom. This is the plight as I see it, for homosexuals, gamblers, smokers, drinkers, pedophiles, sugar addicts, food addicts, and all addictions of the flesh.

Just like there are programs for substance addicts to overcome their addictions, there are also programs for homosexuals that have successfully done the same, but it is by the same means that AA teaches--(faith in God and trust in Him)--that these addictions are also overcome.

So to answer your question, some feel justified in calling you a bigot because homosexuality, they believe, is a "born that way" thing. Or, maybe for some it is a belief system, and so if you oppose it or speak ill of it, you are justifiably (in their mind) labeled a "bigot."

[Hamster]

It's not a single gene, it's a number of factors including hormones, mother's womb, brain structure, etc. Homosexuals don't start off as heterosexuals and gradually turn into homosexuals. It's present starting at puberty when you notice yourself not noticing girls.

Just like there are programs for substance addicts to overcome their addictions, there are also programs for homosexuals that have successfully done the same

Homosexuality is an addiction in the sense that writing with your left hand is an addiction if you're left handed. Or so I've heard, I've never been left-handed.

Attempts to change homosexuals into heterosexuals has been a massive failure. Nowadays when they say change they mean that you will still be homosexually oriented, but you will not engage in homosexual activity. Some manage to develop relationships with women despite their homosexuality (or maybe because of bisexuality?) though. I know a lot of gay Christians who have went through those sorts of programs and it failed all of them. You can argue that homosexuals are so corrupt that they resist change but that's just not the case. They enter voluntarily because they hate their same sex feelings either personally or because of spiritual reasons. And of the people I've mentioned, many go on to just live celibate lives. Personally I see being gay as being "autistic" or being left handed, or something like that. It's just a characteristic that can cause difficulty. Personally, throughout puberty, I tried so hard to develop the slightest interest in girls, but it just wasn't happening. I don't want to become a heterosexual, to be honest, I'd rather just live without a sexuality entirely.

[Nathan Poe]

It's not a single gene, it's a number of factors including hormones, mother's womb, brain structure, etc. Homosexuals don't start off as heterosexuals and gradually turn into homosexuals. It's present starting at puberty when you notice yourself not noticing girls.


Homosexuality is an addiction in the sense that writing with your left hand is an addiction if you're left handed. Or so I've heard, I've never been left-handed.

And believe me, some churches try to break children of that particular "addiction" as well -- and neither faith nor trust in God has anything to do with it.

[lilpixieofterror]

I hope I don't drag my own thread off topic with this comment, but here goes.

That's fine.

I think the answer to your question may perhaps be because of the notion of "BORN THAT WAY, AND CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT." I personally don't believe in "born that way" when it comes to any behavior that God condemns. We all have tendencies, weaknesses of the flesh, and proclivities that tempt us more than others, but to say that our behavior can't be helped, is a lazy cop out, IMO, and a way to justify improper behavior.

To be honest, we are not sure just what causes people to be homosexual or even heterosexual. I've heard many theories, but really nothing concrete.

I don't believe there is a "gene" that UNCONTROLLABLY IMPOSES things such as what sex one is attracted to. Rather than being a gene that IMPOSES this, I rather believe it is a tendency that some are born with such as the tendency to alcohol, drugs, sugar, certain foods, etc. Certain behaviors, unchecked, can lead to addiction, IMO. And addiction destroys freedom. This is the plight as I see it, for homosexuals, gamblers, smokers, drinkers, pedophiles, sugar addicts, food addicts, and all addictions of the flesh.

There could be a gene that causes many behaviors. The problem is, we have not discovered anything to support this notion and even if we do find some genes do cause many behaviors, does that make it ok to engage in these behaviors?

Just like there are programs for substance addicts to overcome their addictions, there are also programs for homosexuals that have successfully done the same, but it is by the same means that AA teaches--(faith in God and trust in Him)--that these addictions are also overcome.

I've read numerous studies that say these do not work, but you'll find programs for drug addictions, food addictions, sex addictions, etc also have a pretty high failure rate because I think it is just because it is far harder to 'treat' our behavior than it is to 'treat' a physical problem. It can be quite difficult to overcome any sort of an addiction or behavioral trait and many people will have that possibility always with them. Does that make homosexuality right? No it does, but I tend to find we all are going to have struggles we go though.

So to answer your question, some feel justified in calling you a bigot because homosexuality, they believe, is a "born that way" thing. Or, maybe for some it is a belief system, and so if you oppose it or speak ill of it, you are justifiably (in their mind) labeled a "bigot."

Could be, I just want to hear what is called a bigot because if it simply opposing a behavior (IE homosexual marriage) we are all bigots in the fact we oppose many behaviors, so why do we not call those opposed to thinks like drinking and driving, bigots? Sounds like to me a good emotional loading term to make a person or group of people seem 'hateful' rather than actually discussing if a behavior is right or wrong.

[Psychic Missile]

I get "list of horrors" emails like this from Christian family members. What's never quite clear is how they think religious freedom is supposed to work, unless it's that Christians should be able to do anything they want and never face negative reactions for it.

That's exactly what plenty of Christians think religious freedom means. Also see: what white people think racial harmony means, what men think sexual equality means. There's always going to be social movements to better society, and right along with them are people in power having a temper tantrum.

Why will nobody explain what is so bigoted about being opposed to gay marriage?

The same reason it's bigoted to be opposed to interracial marriage.

[One Bad Pig]

And believe me, some churches try to break children of that particular "addiction" as well -- and neither faith nor trust in God has anything to do with it.

Got any proof for that?

[Nathan Poe]

Got any proof for that?

Personal experience. The nuns tried their hardest to make me a righty -- but let's just say that sometimes not even an old woman with anger issues and a yardstick can override nature.

[OtherCheek]

It's not a single gene, it's a number of factors including hormones, mother's womb, brain structure, etc. Homosexuals don't start off as heterosexuals and gradually turn into homosexuals. It's present starting at puberty when you notice yourself not noticing girls.


Homosexuality is an addiction in the sense that writing with your left hand is an addiction if you're left handed. Or so I've heard, I've never been left-handed.

Attempts to change homosexuals into heterosexuals has been a massive failure. Nowadays when they say change they mean that you will still be homosexually oriented, but you will not engage in homosexual activity. Some manage to develop relationships with women despite their homosexuality (or maybe because of bisexuality?) though. I know a lot of gay Christians who have went through those sorts of programs and it failed all of them. You can argue that homosexuals are so corrupt that they resist change but that's just not the case. They enter voluntarily because they hate their same sex feelings either personally or because of spiritual reasons. And of the people I've mentioned, many go on to just live celibate lives. Personally I see being gay as being "autistic" or being left handed, or something like that. It's just a characteristic that can cause difficulty. Personally, throughout puberty, I tried so hard to develop the slightest interest in girls, but it just wasn't happening. I don't want to become a heterosexual, to be honest, I'd rather just live without a sexuality entirely.

Overcoming any addiction like alcoholism, heterosexual pornography or homosexual pornography, drugs, etc. does not necessarily mean that one will never face that temptation again. IMO, it rather means never "yielding" to that temptation again. Going through AA's 12 step program, and becoming "dry" does not mean that one will never be tempted again to take a drink. If it were really impossible to overcome homosexuality, then there would be zero cases of people who actually have and can give their own testimonies of that fact.

[lilpixieofterror]

The same reason it's bigoted to be opposed to interracial marriage.

So it is bigoted to be opposed to something PM personally agrees with. Just as I thought... a bigot is anybody that disagrees with you.

[One Bad Pig]

Personal experience. The nuns tried their hardest to make me a righty -- but let's just say that sometimes not even an old woman with anger issues and a yardstick can override nature.

That's not the church side of things, but the education side of things. Teachers everywhere used to try to make everyone use their right hand, whether it was a religious school or not.

[Ladybug823]

Hmm, interesting thread. I guess I'll chime in. I have many friends who are homosexual, I also have friends who have had casual sex, I have friends who drink underage and get drunk underage and when they are of age, I also have friends who smoke do drugs etc. I don't have a problem with the people and I rarely bring up my objections unless I am close enough to the person to warrant a conversation where I am concerned about their behavior and well being. And if they tell me that they don't want to change or that they don't think the same way I do, I don't shun them or lord it over their heads, but if they are interested in talking again I will talk to them. And from then on as long as they don't have a problem with me I still don't have a problem with them and we can agree to disagree.
This does not mean however that I condone their actions, but I will continue to love them as a friend. I wont hate them or even keep them from doing what they are doing, but I also wont tell them that I think what they are doing is o.k. if they ask me just to keep from getting someone mad

[Sparko]

That's not the church side of things, but the education side of things. Teachers everywhere used to try to make everyone use their right hand, whether it was a religious school or not.

yeah like 50 years ago. How OLD is Poe anyway?

[Nathan Poe]

That's not the church side of things, but the education side of things. Teachers everywhere used to try to make everyone use their right hand, whether it was a religious school or not.

Fair enough -- but the difference is in their methods.