The "many" former followers who turned against Christ?

[Cow Poke]

I'll vote for "or what" Alex. Were they His enemies before they rebelled against Him?

Are you claiming that OC was referring to the angels in Heaven when he made his statement about Jesus' friends, Jeff? What a dodge!

Smith's friends ON THIS EARTH turned against Him. Let's take a look at OC's actual words.... I'll bold some pertinent parts for you....

Jesus Christ himself is at the center of a much larger controversy in this world than Joseph Smith. And Christ had his accusers. And if Job's friends falsely accused Job, and Jesus descended below all things, it follows in my thinking that Jesus was also accused and turned upon by many of his one-time friends as well. It remains with each individual to make his own judgment by looking at both sides of the Joseph Smith issue, instead of just one side, and then form a judgment for himself. But I believe we will ALL be held accountable for the judgments we make, so we should make them wisely.

"in this world", and "as well" --- the comparison is to Joseph Smith, "in this world".

[OtherCheek]

Are you claiming that OC was referring to the angels in Heaven when he made his statement about Jesus' friends, Jeff? What a dodge!

Smith's friends ON THIS EARTH turned against Him. Let's take a look at OC's actual words.... I'll bold some pertinent parts for you....



"in this world", and "as well" --- the comparison is to Joseph Smith, "in this world".

Quite consistent, I think, with the supposedly unique LDS Doctrine that satan is the enemy of all righteousness, and that he opposes Christ and that he makes war against the saints of God, and that he seeketh the misery of all mankind, and that he works to drag people down to eternal destruction, and works to turn people against Christ.

Scriptural references furnished upon request.

[Cerebrum123]

I think we LDS draw this inference more easily due to a principle that we believe in which states:
"And thus we can plainly discern, that after a people have been once enlightened by the Spirit of God, and have had great knowledge of things pertaining to righteousness, and then have fallen away into sin and transgression, they become more hardened, and thus their state becomes worse than though they had never known these things."

If this principle is taught in the Bible, then it isn't given much attention by people.

So, in effect you believe that God gives LDS special insight into ALL matters, and they are therefore more knowledgeable on any subject matter, because they have been "enlightened by the Holy Spirit"?

[Cow Poke]

Quite consistent, I think, with the supposedly unique LDS Doctrine that satan is the enemy of all righteousness, and that he opposes Christ and that he makes war against the saints of God, and that he seeketh the misery of all mankind, and that he works to drag people down to eternal destruction, and works to turn people against Christ.

Scriptural references furnished upon request.

Well, thank you for that GIANT DODGE, and maybe you can start a new thread on this totally separate issue.... but, MEANWHILE, perhaps you can get back to the issue of "many" of Jesus' FRIENDS turning against Him: "it follows in my thinking that Jesus was also accused and turned upon by many of his one-time friends as well."

[OtherCheek]

FRIENDS, OC --- not just "former followers". You have yet to back that up.

Christian "A" says: "I am a follower of Jesus, but not his friend."
Christian "B" says: "I am a follower of Jesus, therefore I am his friend."

Which is more likely for a follower of Christ to utter in your opinion?

Luke 21:16-17 Jesus speaking to his disciples says:
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake.

Now, did Christ truly descend below all things or not? Does Jesus expect his disciples to bear with a worse form of rejection than he did himself? It is uniquely LDS doctrine that Christ DID condescend below all things. That is from where I spoke. Thus I say: "In my thinking" which is another way of saying "from my perspective".

A follower of Jesus IS a friend of Jesus, and a friend of Jesus IS a follower of Jesus.

Now, if we are to limit "friend" to the definition of "closest circle of associates only" then you probably have a point, in which case I would have to refine my original words that sparked this thread.

[Sparko]

is "descend below all things" some sort of mormon code phrase, like "gospel principals"?

[OtherCheek]

is "descend below all things" some sort of mormon code phrase, like "gospel principals"?

What is a gospel principal? Is it a school administrator for bible schools and seminary's?

[Bill the Cat]

Now, did Christ truly descend below all things or not?

Huh???

[Cow Poke]

Christian "A" says: "I am a follower of Jesus, but not his friend."
Christian "B" says: "I am a follower of Jesus, therefore I am his friend."

Which is more likely for a follower of Christ to utter in your opinion?

This has NOTHING to do with what you actually stated, OC --- you're just trying to weasel out of it.

A follower of Jesus IS a friend of Jesus, and a friend of Jesus IS a follower of Jesus.

Yup -- I called it! Redefining "Friend"... that is not at ALL what you were saying, OC.

Now, if we are to limit "friend" to the definition of "closest circle of associates only" then you probably have a point, in which case I would have to refine my original words that sparked this thread.

Why don't you just man up and admit you goofed --- there is ZERO EVIDENCE that "many of his one-time friends" turned on Jesus in the same manner that Smith's friends turned on him. It was your misguided attempt to liken Smith's circumstances to those of Jesus. That was the context in which this statement was made.

And all you do is dig in deeper. Smith actually DID THINGS which caused his friends to turn against him -- like proposing to their wives, the Kirtland Bank scandal, the whole polygamy scheme.... Christ did NO SUCH THING. There is NO COMPARISON.

And there's no need for the drama of narrowly defining His "friends" as the "closest circle of associates only" -- You made a statement you cannot defend, and you and Jeff had to go "out of this world" ( get it?) to try to justify it. You screwed up. Own it.

[OtherCheek]

This has NOTHING to do with what you actually stated, OC --- you're just trying to weasel out of it.



Yup -- I called it! Redefining "Friend"... that is not at ALL what you were saying, OC.



Why don't you just man up and admit you goofed --- there were NOT "many of his one-time friends" who turned on Jesus in the same manner that Smith's friends turned on him. It was your misguided attempt to liken Smith's circumstances to those of Jesus. That was the context in which this statement was made.

And all you do is dig in deeper. Smith actually DID THINGS which caused his friends to turn against him -- like proposing to their wives, the Kirtland Bank scandal, the whole polygamy scheme.... Christ did NO SUCH THING. There is NO COMPARISON.

And there's no need for the drama of narrowly defining His "friends" as the "closest circle of associates only" -- You made a statement you cannot defend, and you and Jeff had to go "out of this world" ( get it?) to try to justify it. You screwed up. Own it.

You are a champion of pettiness aren't you. I've already explained things in the last post. The normal reader on this forum, I think, will be satisfied with it and understand it. And that's all I really care about.

So, to you a "follower" of Jesus cannot call himself a "friend" of Jesus. Does that go for your situation as well?

[Cow Poke]

Huh???

The missile was zeroing in, so he had to deploy whatever chaff he had.

[OtherCheek]

You are a champion of pettiness aren't you. I've already explained things in the last post. The normal reader on this forum, I think, will be satisfied with it and understand it. And that's all I really care about.

So, to you a "follower" of Jesus cannot call himself a "friend" of Jesus. Does that go for your situation as well?

I think a "reasonable person" would concede the point that a "follower of Jesus" can be considered a "friend of Jesus."

[Cow Poke]

You are a champion of pettiness aren't you.

Ah... now you're redefining "lover of the truth"!

I've already explained things in the last post.

Well, KINDA ---- and only after dumping load after load of horsie poo.

The normal reader on this forum, I think, will be satisfied with it and understand it.

This is TWEB, OC --- there ARE no normal readers!

And that's all I really care about.

Funny -- it LOOKED like you were just trying to cover your own butt!

So, to you a "follower" of Jesus cannot call himself a "friend" of Jesus. Does that go for your situation as well?

Ah.. back to the convolution! In the CONTEXT of what you had said, OC, you cannot defend your statement. No further line of goofy diversionary questions changes that. But feel free to continue the kabuki dancing.

[Cow Poke]

I think a "reasonable person" would concede the point that a "follower of Jesus" can be considered a "friend of Jesus."

KABUKI_8.JPG

[Sparko]

What is a gospel principal? Is it a school administrator for bible schools and seminary's?

Principle, ok?

now answer the question.