Approaching Mormon Doctrine

[Cerebrum123]

I personally find these Christian to Mormon exchanges amusing, as it’s the exact same arguments that Christians use on Jews, just in reverse.



And the exact same discussion between a Jew and a Christian

There is a rather BIG difference. Jews today can't even follow the laws given to them by God, and therefore can't pay for their sins by sacrifice as was needed in the OT. You basically aren't even following the Old Covenant, also Jesus WAS foretold in the OT as the Messiah. There are no prophecies in the OT or NT that can in any way be pointed to Joseph Smith, that's why he had to make up his new books, and add some credibility(though very small anyway) to his claims for being a prophet.

EDIT: At least Muslims will even try to point to very badly interpreted Bible verses in order to show that Mohammed was indeed foretold by the Jewish prophets.

[Sparko]

And the exact same discussion between a Jew and a Christian

1) Jew: Then why can't you get to the best place in Heaven simply by believing in G-d. Why is Jesus necessary?

Christian: You can't get to the highest order of heaven without accepting ALL that the Lord has to reveal.

2) Jew: You can't even get a HINT of that from the Torah. Jesus inserted himself as a requirement for entry into the highest order of heaven. G-d didn't do that! I don't believe God waited nearly 2000 years to add, "Oh, by the way, to REALLY enjoy Heaven, you're going to need to acknowledge one more "prophet" I had never even mentioned before. So that means that NOBODY before Jesus ever got into the highest heaven. Not even Moses will be there. Only Jesus and you Christians. Amazing.

Christian: the Lord has revealed things that heretofore have not been made known to his people. And it came through Jesus. That's my take as a Christian believer.

3) Jew: Well, sure it is. And how do you know this? Jesus said so. Should you believe him? Sure, he was a prophet... how do we know? Because he said so.... and round and round and round we go.

not even close.

I would first ask you why you think you can even get into heaven since your priests no longer make sacrifices for your sins in the temple. I don't see one place in the Jewish scripture that says you can stop doing sacrifices and still get forgiveness. If "simply believing in G-d" was enough, then why were there sacrifices in the first place?

and your whole bit about Moses not being in heaven and so on just shows you have no clue about what Christians believe about getting into heaven.

[Tanakh Keeper]

There is a rather BIG difference. ...., Jesus WAS foretold in the OT as the Messiah. There are no prophecies in the OT or NT that can in any way be pointed to Joseph Smith, that's why he had to make up his new books, and add some credibility(though very small anyway) to his claims for being a prophet.

Nope, no difference. Take away your Christian bible and ONLY use the Hebrew bible, and no one would know about Jesus. He ain't in there. It's only with the addition of a new book that creates the credibility to his claims for being a prophet. Just like the Mormon addition of their new book for their new prophet.

[Tanakh Keeper]

not even close.

I would first ask you why you think you can even get into heaven since your priests no longer make sacrifices for your sins in the temple. I don't see one place in the Jewish scripture that says you can stop doing sacrifices and still get forgiveness. If "simply believing in G-d" was enough, then why were there sacrifices in the first place?

and your whole bit about Moses not being in heaven and so on just shows you have no clue about what Christians believe about getting into heaven.

And you show that you have no clue about what G-d said about korban and its function.

[Cow Poke]

And you show that you have no clue about what G-d said about korban and its function.

Korban was the little brat next door who broke the tail light out of my 53 Oldsmobile, then lied and said it was "already like that". I got even by putting extra sugar in his koolaid when he'd come over to play, and let him have all the candy he could eat, then send him home to his parents for the night.

[Tanakh Keeper]

Korban was the little brat next door who broke the tail light out of my 53 Oldsmobile, then lied and said it was "already like that". I got even by putting extra sugar in his koolaid when he'd come over to play, and let him have all the candy he could eat, then send him home to his parents for the night.

Exactly!

[India]

This article may be helpful for the serious-minded investigator of Mormonism.
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/articl...ormon-doctrine

It outlines some principles that are helpful to consider when researching our beliefs.

Thanks. It says "official declarations and proclamations" are part of your doctrine, but where are they? Is there like an official compilation of them or something? Are they considered to have equal weight with the BoM, etc.?

You can't get to the highest order of heaven without accepting ALL that the Lord has to reveal.

So you can't get to the celestial heaven without accepting/agreeing with everything in your doctrine? What exactly are the requirements? What about us coffee drinkers?

[OtherCheek]

Thanks. It says "official declarations and proclamations" are part of your doctrine, but where are they? Is there like an official compilation of them or something? Are they considered to have equal weight with the BoM, etc.?

Hi, India. There are not many proclamations issued by the Church. Two recent ones are:
1. The Family: A Proclamation to the World.
and
2. The Living Christ: The Testimony of the Apostles

Previous to that, there are some official declarations canonized at the end of the Doctrine and Covenants.

My guess is that they carry about as much weight as the Scriptures do.

So you can't get to the celestial heaven without accepting/agreeing with everything in your doctrine? What exactly are the requirements? What about us coffee drinkers?

No one is accountable to the laws and principles and ordinances of the Gospel until they enter covenants to keep them. But in order to enter the Celestial Kingdom, one must enter into and honor those covenants that God has set forth which apply to the Celestial Kingdom. So non-LDS (I assume that is what you mean when you say "coffee drinkers"), are fine until the time comes when they are presented with the choice to enter and honor those covenants or not.

[Sparko]

Hi, India. There are not many proclamations issued by the Church. Two recent ones are:
1. The Family: A Proclamation to the World.
and
2. The Living Christ: The Testimony of the Apostles

Previous to that, there are some official declarations canonized at the end of the Doctrine and Covenants.

My guess is that they carry about as much weight as the Scriptures do.


No one is accountable to the laws and principles and ordinances of the Gospel until they enter covenants to keep them. But in order to enter the Celestial Kingdom, one must enter into and honor those covenants that God has set forth which apply to the Celestial Kingdom. So non-LDS (I assume that is what you mean when you say "coffee drinkers"), are fine until the time comes when they are presented with the choice to enter and honor those covenants or not.

so drinking coffee can keep you from being exalted, but not remaining single?

wow. nice covenants you got there OC.

[OtherCheek]

so drinking coffee can keep you from being exalted, but not remaining single?

wow. nice covenants you got there OC.

That's not what I said. But you can always read again.

[Sparko]

so once someone becomes a true blue mormon with a temple recommend, can he still drink coffee and become exalted or not?

[India]

Hi, India. There are not many proclamations issued by the Church. Two recent ones are:
1. The Family: A Proclamation to the World.
and
2. The Living Christ: The Testimony of the Apostles

Previous to that, there are some official declarations canonized at the end of the Doctrine and Covenants.

My guess is that they carry about as much weight as the Scriptures do.

Thanks, OC. Though how much of the stuff at https://www.lds.org/study/prophets-speak-today?lang=eng is canonical and how does one know? I'm getting the impression that "it's all good," i.e. if it's a teaching from a church leader it's generally assumed to be accurate and whether or not it's part of the official canon of scripture isn't something one has to worry about on an average day? I don't mean that as a slam, I'm honestly trying to understand. If I were an LDS convert I would be kinda confused given that I have a background as an evangelical Protestant and make a big distinction between "it's in the Bible" and "it's NOT in the Bible". I would want to know what is considered 100% reliable teaching and what needs to be checked against reliable teaching. And as someone who is wanting to debate with LDS I want to know what I should be reading to understand what the official LDS positions are on things, what is considered 100% authoritative and what is just someone's opinion. If it's on lds.org, is it safe to consider it more or less official?

No one is accountable to the laws and principles and ordinances of the Gospel until they enter covenants to keep them. But in order to enter the Celestial Kingdom, one must enter into and honor those covenants that God has set forth which apply to the Celestial Kingdom. So non-LDS (I assume that is what you mean when you say "coffee drinkers"), are fine until the time comes when they are presented with the choice to enter and honor those covenants or not.

So is there a list of what one specifically has to do/believe to be in the Celestial Kingdom? Can I drink coffee? Mt. Dew? Seriously, if I were a convert I would need to know that. I hosted a slumber party for the first time yesterday/today and I am able to post right now because of Mt. Dew.

[OtherCheek]

Thanks, OC. Though how much of the stuff at https://www.lds.org/study/prophets-speak-today?lang=eng is canonical and how does one know? I'm getting the impression that "it's all good," i.e. if it's a teaching from a church leader it's generally assumed to be accurate and whether or not it's part of the official canon of scripture isn't something one has to worry about on an average day? I don't mean that as a slam, I'm honestly trying to understand. If I were an LDS convert I would be kinda confused given that I have a background as an evangelical Protestant and make a big distinction between "it's in the Bible" and "it's NOT in the Bible". I would want to know what is considered 100% reliable teaching and what needs to be checked against reliable teaching. And as someone who is wanting to debate with LDS I want to know what I should be reading to understand what the official LDS positions are on things, what is considered 100% authoritative and what is just someone's opinion. If it's on lds.org, is it safe to consider it more or less official?

Then stick with the LDS Standard Works. Bible, BoM, D&C, and PgP. I would generally trust Conference Talks from the living Church leadership as well, and put them at a higher priority than talks of people who are no longer around to clarify possible mis-understanding with what they have said.

So is there a list of what one specifically has to do/believe to be in the Celestial Kingdom? Can I drink coffee? Mt. Dew? Seriously, if I were a convert I would need to know that. I hosted a slumber party for the first time yesterday/today and I am able to post right now because of Mt. Dew.

I can't imagine a Celestial Kingdom where addictive substances are in use. Best to try to live that law now, IMO.

[India]

Then stick with the LDS Standard Works. Bible, BoM, D&C, and PgP. I would generally trust Conference Talks from the living Church leadership as well, and put them at a higher priority than talks of people who are no longer around to clarify possible mis-understanding with what they have said.

I guess that's where I get confused -- the "refer to accepted scriptures" approach and the "living prophets' words are more reliable than earlier prophets, because living prophets can clarify what they said" approach are kinda opposites. Is it that the BoM, etc. are established as being reliable through the test of time or something, whereas a recently-deceased prophet's words are not?

I can't imagine a Celestial Kingdom where addictive substances are in use. Best to try to live that law now, IMO.

I don't see it as being a problem, as presumably in heaven whatever we might need will be supplied by God. Either we won't get tired in heaven, or we'd either rest for a bit or be re-energized by God if we were tired. But you're right, people are better off without caffeine in general (and in general I do try to not consume it, though I don't make it an absolute rule not to have it).

But you didn't answer my question -- is there a list of the requirements for entering the Celestial Heaven?

[OtherCheek]

But you didn't answer my question -- is there a list of the requirements for entering the Celestial Heaven?

The basis for living prophets as the LDS view is to call the people to repentance, continue testifying of Christ, and give direction pertinent to our times, and especially to have someone on the earth who possesses all the Keys of the Priesthood such as the sealing power, and officiates under God's Priesthood authority. For example, divorce, same-sex marriage and infidelity did not present the kind of threat to the institutions of "marriage and family" in the past as they do today. Living prophets are here to give warning voices such as contained in "The Family: A Proclamation to the World."

Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Received the Holy Ghost are the first 4 principles and ordinances of the Gospel. (See article of faith #4)
After that, receiving one's Temple endowments and covenants and keeping them in faithfulness to the end.

That's what I would say.