Approaching Mormon Doctrine

[Cerebrum123]

What is the difference between new wine and grape juice?

It's fermented, and contains alcohol.

[One Bad Pig]

What is the difference between new wine and grape juice?

It takes a couple weeks of fermentation to make wine. Given the time it took to travel from place to place, significant fermentation would take place on the road if one were foolish enough to start out with unfermented grape juice, bursting the wineskin. It wasn't safe to fill the wineskins until fermentation was pretty much complete (even then, as Jesus alluded to, you didn't put the wine in old wineskins).

[RBerman]

So, back to the original topic... It's perfectly obvious what has happened. The original Mormons were autocratic and separatist, speaking of themselves as the only true Christians and their leader as an unquestionable, inerrant prophet. That led exactly where it always leads: many wives for the leader and his inner circle. But when polygamy and separatism became an obstacle to statehood for Utah, subsequent generations jettisoned those. Autocracy was replaced by oligarchy as a way to avoid succession wars after the first generation of leaders died. Smith and Young were in a position to demand acceptance of every half-baked thought that passed their lips. But now, like the Pope, Mormon leaders only claim to speak infallibly on matters where no one is going to complain anyway, like "Families are good." And instead of emphasizing separatism like the early Mormons, the last 3-4 generations have been only too eager to carve out a place as just another flavor of Christianity, eager to partake harmoniously of the American capitalist experience.

[Sparko]

So, back to the original topic... It's perfectly obvious what has happened. The original Mormons were autocratic and separatist, speaking of themselves as the only true Christians and their leader as an unquestionable, inerrant prophet. That led exactly where it always leads: many wives for the leader and his inner circle. But when polygamy and separatism became an obstacle to statehood for Utah, subsequent generations jettisoned those. Autocracy was replaced by oligarchy as a way to avoid succession wars after the first generation of leaders died. Smith and Young were in a position to demand acceptance of every half-baked thought that passed their lips. But now, like the Pope, Mormon leaders only claim to speak infallibly on matters where no one is going to complain anyway, like "Families are good." And instead of emphasizing separatism like the early Mormons, the last 3-4 generations have been only too eager to carve out a place as just another flavor of Christianity, eager to partake harmoniously of the American capitalist experience.

a perfect summary. Thanks.

[nrajeff]

It takes a couple weeks of fermentation to make wine. Given the time it took to travel from place to place, significant fermentation would take place on the road if one were foolish enough to start out with unfermented grape juice, bursting the wineskin. It wasn't safe to fill the wineskins until fermentation was pretty much complete (even then, as Jesus alluded to, you didn't put the wine in old wineskins).

So they didn't drink grape juice, or what? Assuming there was a Greek name
for grape juice--say, juice that was less than 2 weeks old--what was that word, if not "new wine" ?

[nrajeff]

So, back to the original topic... It's perfectly obvious what has happened.

Isn't it funny how frequently people who claim something is perfectly obvious, are wrong?

...But now, like the Pope, Mormon leaders only claim to speak infallibly on matters where no one is going to complain anyway, like "Families are good."[

Or, "The Book of Mormon is a non-fictional account of people who actually lived, some of whom actually ended up in the Precolumbian New World" ??

Or, "Jesus' Father has a resurrected body as real as the one Jesus has" ??

Yep, those are "matters" that no one is gonna argue with, right? They're not controversial at all...

But Sparko says your summary was perfect, so that's something, I guess.

[Sparko]

So they didn't drink grape juice, or what? Assuming there was a Greek name
for grape juice--say, juice that was less than 2 weeks old--what was that word, if not "new wine" ?

Since you seem to be talking english ("new wine") i would say the word would be "grape juice"

But the greek word for Grape juice is "trux" which is not used in the NT.

oinoß (oinos) common wine. New Testament Greek.

gleukoß (glukos) highly inebriating, fermented wine, new wine. New Testament Greek.

trux (trooks) "must" – used for unfermented grape juice. [BYU Greek class.] Does not appear in the New Testament. From trugaw (gather ripe fruit)?

http://emp.byui.edu/marrottr/Wine%20...Scriptures.htm
Since the guy is mormon, maybe you will believe him.

they didn't have refrigerators back then, Jeff, so they fermented grape juice into wine in order to store it. Not only that but the alcohol in it kept down the intestinal bugs (water was not always pure back then) and the fact that they knew that is shown in Paul's advice to Timothy:

1 Timothy 5:23
Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.

[nrajeff]

Since you seem to be talking english ("new wine") i would say the word would be "grape juice"

But the greek word for Grape juice is "trux" which is not used in the NT.

oinoß (oinos) common wine. New Testament Greek.

gleukoß (glukos) highly inebriating, fermented wine, new wine. New Testament Greek.

trux (trooks) "must" – used for unfermented grape juice. [BYU Greek class.] Does not appear in the New Testament. From trugaw (gather ripe fruit)?

http://emp.byui.edu/marrottr/Wine%20...Scriptures.htm
Since the guy is mormon, maybe you will believe him.

they didn't have refrigerators back then, Jeff, so they fermented grape juice into wine in order to store it. Not only that but the alcohol in it kept down the intestinal bugs (water was not always pure back then) and the fact that they knew that is shown in Paul's advice to Timothy:

1 Timothy 5:23
Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.

Thanks for the info. Given a choice, I would still choose fresh grape juice. Alcoholic drinks taste terrible to me.

[Sparko]

Thanks for the info. Given a choice, I would still choose fresh grape juice. Alcoholic drinks taste terrible to me.

It's nice that we have so many choices today. We sure have it good.

[RBerman]

Isn't it funny how frequently people who claim something is perfectly obvious, are wrong?

It has been known.

Or, "The Book of Mormon is a non-fictional account of people who actually lived, some of whom actually ended up in the Precolumbian New World" ??
Or, "Jesus' Father has a resurrected body as real as the one Jesus has" ??
Yep, those are "matters" that no one is gonna argue with, right? They're not controversial at all...

Those sound like 19th century vintage doctrines, or am I mistaken? My point was that I haven't heard new doctrines of those unusual-sounding sorts promulgated by the LDS High Command in the last few decades.

[nrajeff]

Those sound like 19th century vintage doctrines, or am I mistaken?

They are doctrines that LDS leaders continue to affirm, even though they are STILL controversial, which was my point.

My point was that I haven't heard new doctrines of those unusual-sounding sorts promulgated by the LDS High Command in the last few decades.

Oh. Okay. When you said "Mormon leaders only claim to speak infallibly on matters where no one is going to complain anyway, like "Families are good" I took it as an assertion that the leaders have resorted to affirming only "safe" things.

But what makes you think "Families are good" is a NEW claim by the LDS church? I think it, too, was a "19th century vintage doctrine." No?

[OtherCheek]

Since you seem to be talking english ("new wine") i would say the word would be "grape juice"

But the greek word for Grape juice is "trux" which is not used in the NT.

oinoß (oinos) common wine. New Testament Greek.

gleukoß (glukos) highly inebriating, fermented wine, new wine. New Testament Greek.

trux (trooks) "must" – used for unfermented grape juice. [BYU Greek class.] Does not appear in the New Testament. From trugaw (gather ripe fruit)?

http://emp.byui.edu/marrottr/Wine%20...Scriptures.htm
Since the guy is mormon, maybe you will believe him.

they didn't have refrigerators back then, Jeff, so they fermented grape juice into wine in order to store it. Not only that but the alcohol in it kept down the intestinal bugs (water was not always pure back then) and the fact that they knew that is shown in Paul's advice to Timothy:

1 Timothy 5:23
Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.

Fred P. Miller, a published Bible Commentator who is not LDS, looks at the O.T. and the Hebrew as it pertains to wine. He says there are 11 different Hebrew words referring to wine.
http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/winebk.htm

[RBerman]

They are doctrines that LDS leaders continue to affirm, even though they are STILL controversial, which was my point.

Oh. Okay. When you said "Mormon leaders only claim to speak infallibly on matters where no one is going to complain anyway, like "Families are good" I took it as an assertion that the leaders have resorted to affirming only "safe" things.[/quote]

OK. I believe you understand me now.

But what makes you think "Families are good" is a NEW claim by the LDS church? I think it, too, was a "19th century vintage doctrine." No?

Yes, that one would certainly be evergreen. It wasn't controversial in the past, either.

[One Bad Pig]

Fred P. Miller, a published Bible Commentator who is not LDS, looks at the O.T. and the Hebrew as it pertains to wine. He says there are 11 different Hebrew words referring to wine.
http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/winebk.htm

Yep. And insists that one of them only refers to unfermented grape juice, even though that would mean unfermented grape juice makes people merry (which is prima facie absurd). Additionally, he distinguishes between wine tithed for priests to drink and wine tithed to be poured out as a drink offering - which is needlessly complicating matters so he can keep grinding his axe against alcohol consumption.

[nrajeff]

ASIYS :
: from Asas to squeeze out juice. meaning: must or fresh grape juice as just trodden out. -translated juice, new wine, sweet wine, Used 5 times in the O.T. 4 times translated wine.

So, according to that site, fresh grape juice--juice which has been freshly trodden out--can be translated "wine."

That is what I was thinking might be the case.

And there have been times when drinking Welch's Grape Juice has put me in a good mood. It really is delicious. I am indebted to Pastor Welch for inventing a way for Christian churches to have non-alcoholic wine for their Eucharist.