Approaching Mormon Doctrine

[Cow Poke]

Do you have bottles of commercial wine from 1830's and 1840's? Wow. I'm impressed, genius.

Couldn't he have just gotten the wine from the bar in the hotel he owned?

[Cow Poke]

By knowing where they purchased it, and when they purchased it back in the 1800's when Joseph was told not to purchase wine from the enemies of the Church.

But it was OK for him to order wine from prison? Would this have been purchased "from the enemies of the Church"? How did he know it was not poisoned or ... what Jeff said?

“Before the jailor came in, his boy brought in some water, and said the guard wanted some wine. Joseph gave Dr. Richards two dollars to give the guard; but the guard said one was enough, and would take no more. “The guard immediately sent for a bottle of wine, pipes, and two small papers of tobacco; and one of the guards brought them into the jail soon after the jailor went out. Dr. Richards uncorked the bottle, and presented a glass to Joseph, who tasted, as brother and the Doctor, and the bottle was then given to the guard, who turned to go out.” (History of the Church, Vol. 6, page 616)

And your history of the Church calls it a "bottle of wine". And it specifically mentions "uncorking" it.

[Cow Poke]

Do you have bottles of commercial wine from 1830's and 1840's? Wow. I'm impressed, genius.

Smith apparently did! If not "commercial", at least it was bottled and corked, wonderful and gracious OC.

[One Bad Pig]

Do you have bottles of commercial wine from 1830's and 1840's? Wow. I'm impressed, genius.

Here's a tough question for you. Is the seventeenth century BEFORE or AFTER the 1830's? Now, it's just possible that those in Joseph Smith's area were still operating under byob (bring your own bottle) - but then the wine would've been sold by volume, and the customer would expect to watch it being measured. And unless the purchaser opened his yap, the seller would not know it was intended for sacramental use rather than wetting Mr. Smith's throat.

[OtherCheek]

Here's a tough question for you. Is the seventeenth century BEFORE or AFTER the 1830's? Now, it's just possible that those in Joseph Smith's area were still operating under byob (bring your own bottle) - but then the wine would've been sold by volume, and the customer would expect to watch it being measured. And unless the purchaser opened his yap, the seller would not know it was intended for sacramental use rather than wetting Mr. Smith's throat.

The 17th Century is the 1600's.

Doctrine and Covenants 27:3 Given August 1830:

Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, that you shall not purchase wine neither strong drink of your enemies;

[Sparko]

The 17th Century is the 1600's.

Doctrine and Covenants 27:3 Given August 1830:

Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, that you shall not purchase wine neither strong drink of your enemies;

so where did Smith buy the booze for his hotel bar from? Fellow Mormons?

[nrajeff]

so where did Smith buy the booze for his hotel bar from? Fellow Mormons?

It would be okay to stock the hotel bar with booze purchased from non-LDS, since it was going to be served and sold to non-LDS hotel guests.

[OtherCheek]

so where did Smith buy the booze for his hotel bar from? Fellow Mormons?

I seriously doubt it, as liquor is not the same thing as fermented grape juice.

Joseph probably decided that the Mormons could not or should not impose their views on abstinence on the entire city and its population.
You can read this article if you have a mind to.
http://en.fairmormon.org/Word_of_Wis...quor_in_Nauvoo

[nrajeff]

[QUOTE=Cow Poke;3413755]Have you, personally, EVER experienced anything other than water in the sacrament?I think when I was on a scout campout/fishing trip that started on a Friday night and ended on Monday morning, we held our own Sunday services by the lakeside. For the sacrament, I think we used orange juice because the water we had wasn't very potable. For the bread, which we didn't have any of, we used someone's crackers if memory serves. I was 16 or 17 at the time, back in the 1970s. I don't recall a time since then when I have been where there was a need to use something other than water and bread, but while I was in Japan, we probably used some unusual bread. They have weird bread there.

You have a source for this? How could anti-LDS people even get CLOSE to your wine/grape juice?

Source is church history I think. Enemies could pull a switcheroo if they were clever enough.

[RBerman]

It would be okay to stock the hotel bar with booze purchased from non-LDS, since it was going to be served and sold to non-LDS hotel guests.

Is it OK for a Mormon to run a brothel in Nevada for non-Mormons then? Your argument seems very strange.

[Cow Poke]

The 17th Century is the 1600's.

Doctrine and Covenants 27:3 Given August 1830:

Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, that you shall not purchase wine neither strong drink of your enemies;

Smith did EXACTLY that when he was in jail -- or were his jailers not his enemies at that point? So he disobeyed a COMMANDMENT.

(can't wait for the rationalization of THIS one ... "well, how do we KNOW they were his enemies?")

[Cow Poke]

It would be okay to stock the hotel bar with booze purchased from non-LDS, since it was going to be served and sold to non-LDS hotel guests.

Until Emma shamed Smith into how bad it looks for "the head of a religious body" to have a bar! Then it WASN'T OK, and Smith promised to have the bar removed. He really should have listened to her more.

[Sparko]

It would be okay to stock the hotel bar with booze purchased from non-LDS, since it was going to be served and sold to non-LDS hotel guests.

How do you know that? Apparently the LDS at the time, including Smith drank booze too. Or are you saying only non-lds were guests at the hotel?

Not only that but if he was purchasing booze from non-lds enemies, then Smith was breaking the commandment OC previously quoted:

Doctrine and Covenants 27:3 Given August 1830:

Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, that you shall not purchase wine neither strong drink of your enemies;

[Cow Poke]

How do you know that? Apparently the LDS at the time, including Smith drank booze too. Or are you saying only non-lds were guests at the hotel?

And why did Emma shame Smith into REMOVING the bar from Smith's hotel because "it doesn't appear right for the head of a religious body"? And why is the "defense" of the bar "well, it wasn't SMITH's bar, it belonged to Joe Schmoe who was down on his luck, and Smith was only HELPING him".

[Sparko]

I seriously doubt it, as liquor is not the same thing as fermented grape juice.

Joseph probably decided that the Mormons could not or should not impose their views on abstinence on the entire city and its population.
You can read this article if you have a mind to.
http://en.fairmormon.org/Word_of_Wis...quor_in_Nauvoo

It's one thing not to actively impose your views on someone else, it's another thing entirely to cater to their sinful acts for profit.

It is the difference between a pro-lifer not actively protesting an abortion clinic and a pro-lifer running an abortion clinic themselves.