Obama's Department of Justice to the rescue.

[Cerebrum123]

What makes them still a man to you?

The fact that they have a Y chromosome.

[Psychic Missile]

The fact that they have a Y chromosome.

The only reason the Y chromosome is considered the defining trait for one's sex is because of different genes on that chromosome working together. If someone has a Y chromosome but the genes that make fetus into a male aren't present or working as they should, then the Y chromosome isn't the determining factor. There are differences in the gene(s), gene placement, and gene effectiveness in many people. This is true of transgendered people. A different prenatal hormonal environment caused by disfunctioning genes can change a fetus just as much as hormone therapy can change a post-birth transgendered person.

Here's a video of how someone can be a woman and still have a Y chromosome.

In addition, what about hermaphrodites? They face a similar dilemma. Standard practice is to let them choose their gender (and sex, through surgery). Is that incorrect? Should we instead go against an intersexed person's wishes if the appearance of their Y chromosome is in opposition to how they want to live?

[Cerebrum123]

The only reason the Y chromosome is considered the defining trait for one's sex is because of different genes on that chromosome working together. If someone has a Y chromosome but the genes that make fetus into a male aren't present or working as they should, then the Y chromosome isn't the determining factor. There are differences in the gene(s), gene placement, and gene effectiveness in many people. This is true of transgendered people. A different prenatal hormonal environment caused by disfunctioning genes can change a fetus just as much as hormone therapy can change a post-birth transgendered person.

Here's a video of how someone can be a woman and still have a Y chromosome.

In addition, what about hermaphrodites? They face a similar dilemma. Standard practice is to let them choose their gender (and sex, through surgery). Is that incorrect? Should we instead go against an intersexed person's wishes if the appearance of their Y chromosome is in opposition to how they want to live?

It's a complicated situation that needs to be taken on a case by case basis, but on this thread we are talking about people who "feel" they are more one gender than the other, and want to be able to go into any bathroom they want, even if they haven't had the surgery to "change" their gender to match what they "feel" they are. If they went ahead and got the surgery, I would say go ahead and use the bathroom that matches up with their current physiology. Do you think many people are going to feel comfortable in a public bathroom, when someone who is obviously NOT the gender posted on the door goes in anyway? Anyway, genetically the only thing a male has that a female doesn't is a Y chromosome. Personally though, if they have gone ahead with the sex change surgery, I don't think it would be wrong for them to use the bathroom of the gender they changed to.

[Darth Executor]

The only reason the Y chromosome is considered the defining trait for one's sex is because of different genes on that chromosome working together. If someone has a Y chromosome but the genes that make fetus into a male aren't present or working as they should, then the Y chromosome isn't the determining factor.

Actually all it means is that there is something broken in that person. Their gender does not suddenly change.

[JimL]

It's a complicated situation that needs to be taken on a case by case basis, but on this thread we are talking about people who "feel" they are more one gender than the other, and want to be able to go into any bathroom they want, even if they haven't had the surgery to "change" their gender to match what they "feel" they are. If they went ahead and got the surgery, I would say go ahead and use the bathroom that matches up with their current physiology. Do you think many people are going to feel comfortable in a public bathroom, when someone who is obviously NOT the gender posted on the door goes in anyway? Anyway, genetically the only thing a male has that a female doesn't is a Y chromosome. Personally though, if they have gone ahead with the sex change surgery, I don't think it would be wrong for them to use the bathroom of the gender they changed to.

No, I don't believe it is strictly about how they "feel." This thread is about those who not only "feel" they are trapped in the wrong body, but that are also living their lives according to how they "feel." In other words its only a transgendered person, a person who, though anatomically male, has been living in all other facets of their lives as a female, which btw, they are, I believe, required to do for quite some time before a doctor will even perform the actual sex change surgery, that are allowed to use female bathrooms. Neuroscientists btw, have studied the brain structures of transgendered and homosexual males and have found that those structures are more in line with the female brain than the male.

[Jedidiah]

If a man, for example, is routinely living as a woman, who is to know if he uses the wrong restroom? It only becomes a problem when he publicizes things in some way or another.

[Jaecp]

People can tell when its a drag queen, much of the time. Plus, depending the size of the area people might know. If there was a way for men to pass undetected, as women to spy on them in the womens room I'm sure we'dd hear stories about it

[Darth Executor]

Is a drag queen really living like a woman? Cross-dresser and transsexual are not the same thing.

[Jaecp]

Is a drag queen really living like a woman? Cross-dresser and transsexual are not the same thing.

A drag queen isn't living like a women, but a pre op transexual who is living like a women is dressed up in drag more than a queen, living as a women involves physically dressing like one in jedidiahs example of "how would they know its a preop male"

[Sparko]

let's see. Male genes, Male reproductive parts... Hmm. I would say that was a man, not a woman, no matter if he dressed like a woman, or if he had boobs.

[Jedidiah]

My point is the whole incident is a matter of publicity, not resisting oppression.

[Psychic Missile]

It's a complicated situation that needs to be taken on a case by case basis, but on this thread we are talking about people who "feel" they are more one gender than the other, and want to be able to go into any bathroom they want, even if they haven't had the surgery to "change" their gender to match what they "feel" they are. If they went ahead and got the surgery, I would say go ahead and use the bathroom that matches up with their current physiology. Do you think many people are going to feel comfortable in a public bathroom, when someone who is obviously NOT the gender posted on the door goes in anyway? Anyway, genetically the only thing a male has that a female doesn't is a Y chromosome. Personally though, if they have gone ahead with the sex change surgery, I don't think it would be wrong for them to use the bathroom of the gender they changed to.

I feel that you're ignoring everything I just said. Gender identity disorder isn't a purely psychological issue. It's based on biology. Transgendered people have different gene(s) and/or gene configurations than cisgendered people. The Y chromosome is NOT the determining factor in whether someone is male or female. It's much more complicated than that. For example, on the Y chromosome is a gene that, most of the time, makes someone into a man (SRY for those wanting to look into it). It's possible to have a Y chromosome and be absent this gene, or have this gene mutated so it doesn't function, or have this gene malfunction and result in a different effect. Some people identify as a third gender because of genetic anomalies that put them outside of the traditional binary. To narrow down the defining trait of being a man or a woman based on genitals or the Y chromosome doesn't take into account the complicated processes that can result in gender identity disorder.

Actually all it means is that there is something broken in that person. Their gender does not suddenly change.

Someone who is "broken" by gender identity disorder can be fixed by supporting them and accepting them as the gender they identify as.

[Christy]

A problem that I have with the transgendered movement is that they seem incredibly thin skinned to the point that if you even call them by their biological gender pronouns they get upset, and are coddled because of it, making people thin skinned. I can understand getting mad at somebody if you ask them nicely to call you by the gender pronouns that they identify with and that said person keeps calling you pronouns of your biological gender to be a jerk.

They also expect straight people to be attracted to them, because they have the brain sex that they say they have so that makes them that sex, and if you don't do any of these things you're a transphobe.

I'm not saying all transsexual individuals are like this, just that the movement thinks like this.

This is kind of a silly thing for the DOJ to get involved in too. The restroom thing I mean.

[Psychic Missile]

A problem that I have with the transgendered movement is that they seem incredibly thin skinned to the point that if you even call them by their biological gender pronouns they get upset, and are coddled because of it, making people thin skinned. I can understand getting mad at somebody if you ask them nicely to call you by the gender pronouns that they identify with and that said person keeps calling you pronouns of your biological gender to be a jerk.

They also expect straight people to be attracted to them, because they have the brain sex that they say they have so that makes them that sex, and if you don't do any of these things you're a transphobe.

I'm not saying all transsexual individuals are like this, just that the movement thinks like this.

This is kind of a silly thing for the DOJ to get involved in too. The restroom thing I mean.

Lots of minorities get upset when they're marginalized to their faces (treating gay people like monsters, treating women like sex objects, treating people of color like sub-humans). I can't blame them. You also have to remember that those who don't get offended easily aren't going to be noticed. There certainly should be a different approach taken towards ignorance vs hostility, but that's based on the situation, so I can't really say anything there.

It's wrong to treat transexuals as disgusting. There are plenty of transexuals out there who one wouldn't know were born the opposite gender if one was never told, even after being intimate. If one doesn't find a transexual attractive because one can't get over hangups about who they were, that needs to be acknowledged as an issue with oneself, not with the transexual.

The DOJ got involved because of this:

The Office for Civil Rights (OCR) enforces five federal civil rights laws that prohibit discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, sex, disability and age in programs or activities that receive federal financial assistance from the Department of Education (ED). -from the US Department of Education website.

This is based on several federal acts.

[Christy]

"There are plenty of transexuals out there who one wouldn't know were born the opposite gender if one was never told, even after being intimate. If one doesn't find a transexual attractive because one can't get over hangups about who they were, that needs to be acknowledged as an issue with oneself, not with the transexual."

So if somebody gets in a relationship with somebody then finds out that the person is transsexual later on and has qualms about that they have a problem?

So if you're not panssexual, then there's something wrong with you I guess.