Can the heretic be saved?

[footwasher]

I believe the issue was "Who is my neighbour?" Whose worlview should I endorse?

And Jesus pointed answer was not "Your fellow countryman", but the one who follows the law, whether he possesses Torah or not. Circumcisión becomes UN-CIRCUMCISION if one does not observe Torah.

Romans 2:26 NET
Therefore if the uncircumcised man obeys the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?

It would be improper for the body of Christ to love (endorse) Hitler or Saddam!


There is a view that Luke altered the victim's identity to cater to Gentile readers. Jewish parables follow a priest, Levite, Israelite grouping. See image:

http://bible.org/seriespage/good-samaritan

Thank-you - That was a thoughtful reply...

The Lord in Spirit [Via the Law] is teaching the children of Israel to get along with one another...
To love one's neighbor as one's self...
That love is expanded in the parable of the Good Samaritan...
For the neighbor is anyone who does another good...
And we are not to love only followers or fulfillers of the Law
But are to love all mankind as self...
For this Jesus did, drawing ALL to Himself on the Cross...
Desiring that ALL should be saved...
And come to the knowledge of the Truth [Himself]...

So that your error is your partiality when you say:
"IOW, love those who follow the law,
who show justice, mercy and love."
For we are to love even our enemies...
We are to bless those who hate us...
And despitefully use us for selfish gain...

Christ died for sinners...
And we are to follow Him...

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

I believe the issue was "Who is my neighbour?" Whose worlview should I endorse?

No, my brother - The issue, as Christ framed it, was: "WHO was the neighbor TO the man left for dead?" The issue is WHO? And not "what worldview"?

And Jesus pointed answer was not "Your fellow countryman", but the one who follows the law, whether he possesses Torah or not. Circumcisión becomes UN-CIRCUMCISION if one does not observe Torah.

The Robbers are the demons working through human passions...
The wounds are unto death caused by sin
The Good Samaritan is Christ -
The Inn is His Church -
The Inn-keeper is His Servant in the Church...
The Church is the Hospital for the wounded -
Not the wounds of life, but of sins...

The Apostles all followed the Law after their conversion to Christ...
The Gentiles do not...

The Apostles following the Law is one thing...
Obedience to Christ is another...
The Apostles did both...
Grace comes through obedience to Christ [Faith]
It does not come through the Law...

It would be improper for the body of Christ to love (endorse) Hitler or Saddam!

My Brother, you foolishly equate love with endorsement...
And you forget Matthew 5:

Mat 5:39-46
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you,
do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:
for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good,
and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye?
do not even the publicans the same?

This is radical love -
Even for the Taliban and Hitler and Stalin and Idi Amin...
To pray for ALL sinners with tears...
To bless them and intercede for them...
No endorsement of sin...
But love for all creation...

There is a view that Luke altered the victim's identity to cater to Gentile readers.
Jewish parables follow a priest, Levite, Israelite grouping. See image:

http://bible.org/seriespage/good-samaritan

A view of vanity...

Arsenios

[footwasher]

But this is Torah:

Leviticus 19:17-18 NET
You must not hate your brother in your heart. You must surely reprove your fellow citizen so that you do not incur sin on account of him. You must not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the children of your people, but you must love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.


And it clearly identifies neighbour as those who belong to your religion!

[Rdr. Arsenios]

But this is Torah:

Leviticus 19:17-18 NET
You must not hate your brother in your heart. You must surely reprove your fellow citizen so that you do not incur sin on account of him. You must not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the children of your people, but you must love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.


And it clearly identifies neighbour as those who belong to your religion!

Yes it does, and Christ is the fulfillment of the Law,

And he made ALL men one's neighbors...

And not just those of your "religion"...

Peter ate with the Gentiles - He did not become trapped in the Law...

You cannot let the OT dictate the meaning of the NT...

I mean, you CAN... This is a free country! But in that you err...

We are under the New Covenant...

The Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior...

Christ IS the Fulfillment of the Old Covenant...

Not out of His perfect obedience to the Law, but in His BEING God...

And we in Him through Baptism into Christ...

Arsenios

PS - Faith, not religion, is the human means of salvation...

[footwasher]

George Blaisdell wrote:

Yes it does, and Christ is the fulfillment of the Law,

Absolutely. Christ did what Joshua did not do: gave Israel rest, and in doing so gave the world rest, as promised to Abraham. He cleansed all of humanity and that sanctified humanity is fully represented by Him and Him only.

Therefore the importance of being in Him, the Body of Christ, the church universal.

And he made ALL men one's neighbors

By temporarily hardening Israel, the role exclusively assigned to Israel is now accessible to all the nations of the world.

And not just those of your "religion".

Because even before the Law, the Badge, was given to Israel, God's People were already identifiable by faith, Abraham being the father of everyone in the world who believed God existed and rewarded those who sought Him, by giving them to Christ, who will never turn them away or lose them, because His sheep hear His voice!

Those who are drawn to the resurrection , the wedding banquet, the Kingdom of God, will come, and when the host finds out they have no interest in justice, mercy and love, ie. Do not possess wedding garments, will cast them out into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth!

[Rdr. Arsenios]

George Blaisdell wrote:

Yes it does, and Christ is the fulfillment of the Law,

Absolutely. Christ did what Joshua did not do: gave Israel rest, and in doing so gave the world rest, as promised to Abraham. He cleansed all of humanity and that sanctified humanity is fully represented by Him and Him only.

Therefore the importance of being in Him, the Body of Christ, the church universal.

And he made ALL men one's neighbors

By temporarily hardening Israel, the role exclusively assigned to Israel is now accessible to all the nations of the world.

And not just those of your "religion".

Because even before the Law, the Badge, was given to Israel, God's People were already identifiable by faith, Abraham being the father of everyone in the world who believed God existed and rewarded those who sought Him, by giving them to Christ, who will never turn them away or lose them, because His sheep hear His voice!

Those who are drawn to the resurrection , the wedding banquet, the Kingdom of God, will come, and when the host finds out they have no interest in justice, mercy and love, ie. Do not possess wedding garments, will cast them out into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth!

We are apparently working from different frames of purpose here -

Israel rejected Christ... So all you say about Her is moot...

As a Christian, I am to be a neighbor to ALL...
Because I am in Christ...
Jews and the Law have nothing to do with this...

Arsenios

[footwasher]

Sometimes, we follow traditions without knowing how our Sages reached their formation.

Jesus was very insistent. This is how the world will know you are my disciples, if you love those who follow my commandments.


George Blaisdell wrote:
We are apparently working from different frames of purpose here -

Israel rejected Christ... So all you say about Her is moot...


Romans 11:25-26 NET
For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: A partial hardening has happened to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion;
he will remove ungodliness from Jacob.

As a Christian, I am to be a neighbor to ALL... Because I am in Christ... Jews and the Law have nothing to do with this



1 John 2:7-10 NET
Dear friends, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have already heard. On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining. The one who says he is in the light but still hates his fellow Christian is still in the darkness. The one who loves his fellow Christian resides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him.

[footwasher]

Here's the kicker, the conjurer bringing out the disappeared object!

We've seen that Christians are recognised and rewarded by the love they have for other Christians.

Tada! A pagan is given eternal life for giving a cup of water to a Christian persecuted for his faith, the belief that God rewards those who manifest justice, mercy and love, the greater teachings of the Law!

Matthew 25:33-34 NET
He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

The Conjurer... Tada!

Lord have Mercy!

Arsenios

[footwasher]

Let's wait for the conventional view.

That's when you see the incoherence. And that's when the cavalry (Tradition) will be needed!

Lord have Mercy!

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Let's wait for the conventional view.

That's when you see the incoherence. And that's when the cavalry (Tradition) will be needed!

We do not need conventional views...

We need the Faith given once for all to the Saints...

Holy Tradition is prayer...

This is prayer:

Lord Have Mercy...

Arsenios

[The Remonstrant]

My question is: Can the heretic be saved? Can the heretic or unorthodox have saving faith?

Yes... if the heretic repents of his or her bad theology.

[footwasher]

http://www.hornes.org/theologia/rich...formed-critics
Quote
Dan Says: August 25th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
Finally! A concise, well-reasoned, simply worded defense of N.T. Wright’s thoughts (and from someone whose actually taken the time to read him)! My friend, I think you could ‘wright’ a book to set the record straight!

So much of this discussion/debate seems to focus around terms and use of language. If we would only listen to one another more sincerely and more extensively…

7 John Holmes Says: October 16th, 2009 at 5:20 pm

How right, is Wright? One of the profoundest statements RC Sproul made that I came across, is, “Pelagianism is easy to spot, but the more dangerous heresy is semi-pelagianism, because it is so subtle it is hard to see and detect”. After reading, and listening to NT, Book of Romans, word for word exegesis it seems at times, that he paddles his boat close to this dangerous water. Dr. Michael Horton has concluded that this is were his theology had landed. Bishop Paul Barnett, a potent new testament scholar in his own right, has challenged Wright, point by point too. Dr. Paul Helm a scholarly look this week, has concluded that NT does not understand reformed theology in the arena of imputation, and he is surprised at the historical mistakes he is making. So lets not rush to judgement, NT seems many times to use the Greek and spin it the way he wants the argument to go. Phil 3:8 made him squirm, when I listened to that exegesis he was not his usual supper confident self, this verse alone blows a huge hole in Dunn’s and Sanders theory, so most reformers could read the Greek text too, don’t fall into semi-pelgianism. The debate must go on, Piper needs to step aside and let the new testament scholars hammer this out. Many very able reformed theologians are now taking serious look at the Greek and far from convinced that the Bishop has not fallen into semi-peligianism, and his exegesis has serious flaws. Hope NT does a Dunn like 800 page Paul so we can here him out fully and the hide and go seek will end, he re-read Luther and Calvin, etc and get the facts straight. Lay out the imputation, justification, how am I saved, becomes very important to say the least.

[seanD]

Yes... if the heretic repents of his or her bad theology.

It's not impossible but unlikely since the line that divides heresy and not heresy are often too grey to determine either way. Religious folks are also often the most prideful when it comes to admitting they're wrong about a doctrine.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

It's not impossible but unlikely since the line that divides heresy and not heresy are often too grey to determine either way. Religious folks are also often the most prideful when it comes to admitting they're wrong about a doctrine.

Canon 95 of the Sixth Ecumenical Council states:

As for heretics who are joining Orthodoxy and the portion of the saved, we accept them in accordance with the subjoined sequence and custom. Arians and Macedonians and Novatians, who called themselves Cathari and Aristeri, and the Tessarakaidekatitae, or, at any rate, those called Tetradites and Apolinarists, we accept, when they give us certificates (called libelli); and when they anathematize every heresy that does not believe as the holy catholic and Apostolic Church of God believes, and are sealed, i.e., are anointed first with holy myron on the forehead and the eyes, and the nose and mouth, and the ears, while we are anointing them and sealing them we say, "A seal of a gift of Holy Spirit." As concerning Paulianists who have afterwards taken refuge in the Catholic Church, a definition has been promulgated that they have to be rebaptized without fail. As for Eunomians, however, who baptize with a single immersion, and Montanists who are hereabouts called Phrygians and Sabellians; who hold the tenet of Hyiopatoria (or modalistic monarchianism) and do other embarrassing things; and all other heresies—for there are many hereabouts, especially those hailing from the country of the Galatians—as for all of them who wish to join Orthodoxy, we accept them as Greeks. Accordingly, on the first day, we make them Christians; on the second day, catechumens; after this, on the third day we exorcise them by breathing three times into their faces and into their ears. And thus we catechize them, and make them stay for a long time in church and listen to the Scriptures, and then we baptize them.] As for Manicheans, and Valentinians, and Marcionists, and those from similar heresies, they have to give us certificates (called libelli) and anathematize their heresy, the Nestorians, and Nestorius, and Eutyches and Dioscorus, and Severus, and the other exarchs of such heresies, and those who entertain their beliefs, and all the aforementioned heresies, and thus they are allowed to partake of Holy Communion.

So that historically, the matter of their repentance and subsequent reception back into the Body of Christ was a matter of such importance as to have not only the above, but several other,\ major sections of Canon devoted to their reception back into the Church...

Interesting to note is that each heresy has its own specific method of recovery into the Church, and this because a heresy is specific in its wounding of the soul, and requires specific healing... In the case of Peter, for instance, after he had denied Christ three times, denying any knowledge of Him whatsoever, the specific action needed for his return to Christ was his confession, three times, that he loved Christ, and this was followed by Christ instructing him what to do, and his end...

So that it is the duty of the Body of Christ, the Church, to follow Christ in the reception of repentant heretics back into the fold, by providing them specific courses of return and restoration for their specific departures [heresies]...

And yes, they came back en-masse... Though many of the arch-heretics did not...

Arsenios