Can the heretic be saved?

[footwasher]

Romans 10:18 is in the context of missionaries preaching the gospel to the nations. Back up a few verses and start again.

The essence of Romans 10 is that all humanity has heard the Gospel: from Adam to John, a future event, after John, a completed event.

To all who follow "love God, love your neighbour", ie. God's children, the law becomes a pedagogue, a babysitter.

To those who hear of the Cross, they have eternal life, live the Kingdom Life, the Jubilee life, a fresh start!

Our mission is to announce the availabilty of the Kingdom. God's children enter and remain. Those who are not leave. If they had really been one of us they would have stayed!

There's some deep stuff going on in there, RB!

[RBerman]

The essence of Romans 10 is that all humanity has heard the Gospel: from Adam to John, a future event, after John, a completed event.

That is not even remotely correct, hence the appeal to Moses, and the need for people to travel to bring the good news.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Re: Can the heretic be saved?

The only way I know to save a heretic is for the heretic to repent...

The First Council of Nicea heard Arius' teaching, condemned that teaching as a heresy,
and then anathematized Arius himself because he refused to repent...

Other Councils have condemned a teaching as heresy and received the repentance from it of its proponents, to the salvation of their souls...

The mere holding of an incorrect belief does not make a heretic, but the teaching of that incorrect belief after correction does...

Normally, it is only when an incorrect belief becomes a serious problem for the Church that a Council is held to address it...

Many saints, for instance, and one of the greatest of them, St. Isaac of Syria, believed in universal salvation, which is an heretical belief...

But such a belief is not a problem causer for the Church, because it is not taught...

Instead, it is used to show that even the greatest are not without errors...

We are not saved by our beliefs, you see, but by our relationship with Christ...

And that is an ontological matter of the condition of one's soul regarding sin...

Arsenios

[footwasher]

That is not even remotely correct, hence the appeal to Moses, and the need for people to travel to bring the good news.

The directive to Israel was to bring in the Kingdom. That was how they would be a blessing to the world. The same directive as the rest of the world, as stated by Isaiah. And said to be within reach, by Moses.

Not in heaven, not in the abyss. The kingdom of God was "amongst" Man.

Should be an interesting exercise to paraphrase Moses, Isaiah and Jesus and build up that view.

Are you game?

The directive to the Church is to announce its arrival, the result of the Cross.

Don't miss the forest in your obsessing over the trees...

[RBerman]

The directive to Israel was to bring in the Kingdom. That was how they would be a blessing to the world. The same directive as the rest of the world, as stated by Isaiah. And said to be within reach, by Moses.

Not in heaven, not in the abyss. The kingdom of God was "amongst" Man.

Should be an interesting exercise to paraphrase Moses, Isaiah and Jesus and build up that view.

Are you game?

The directive to the Church is to announce its arrival, the result of the Cross.

Don't miss the forest in your obsessing over the trees...

The directive to the church was to preach Christ crucified so that men might put their faith in Christ and be saved. No preaching, no faith, no salvation.

[footwasher]

You got game!

RBerman wrote:
The directive to the church was to preach Christ crucified


1 Cor 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness

Paraphrase
But we preach the Kingdom fulfilled through faith in the righteousness of God, dikaiosune theou , to the Jews an obstacle, because they believe in human effort, as if that was possible, and because they didnt understand Moses, and to the rest of the world, meaningless, because they don't have the promise to Abraham.


RBerman wrote:
so that men might put their faith in Christ and be saved.


Acts 11:13“And he reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house, and saying, ‘Send to Joppa and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here; 14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’

Paraphrase
And he reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house, and saying, ‘Send to Joppa and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here; 14 and he will teach you, just as Jesus taught the disciples, a teaching that made them clean, that He was the Messiah, who saved Israel, and in the same way, you and all your household.’


RBerman wrote:
No preaching, no faith, no salvation.


Romans 10:11for the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!”

16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; “THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD.”


Paraphrase
11for the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES that God has provided salvation IN Jesus WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!” That God has provided salvation in Jesus.

God promised Abraham unconditionally that the world would be bless through his Seed.

Who is Abraham's Seed? They are a community which is approved by God.

How is Israel to be identified as the people who are in that community?

By being compliant with the Law.

What is compliance with the Law?

It is manifesting what the sacrifices symbolize: propitiation and expiation.

Propitiation pays the wages of the sins of the community, expiation removes the source of sin in the community, making the people of God fit for the work of being a blessing to the world.

Did Joshua, held up as the example of obedience to God fulfill the task of being in compliance with the law?

No Joshua did not bring Israel into rest.

Could Joshua have brought Israel into rest?

With men, it is impossible, but with God everything is possible.

What prevented Joshua from completing the job?

He did not have all the resources, revelation.

Did the subsequent leaders have more revelation?

They did, because the prophets brought more revelation from God.

Was the revelation sufficient for achieving rest?

Yes, Israel could reach fruition, but did not, leading to regret shown by God through His prophets and His Messiah.

Did Jesus fulfill the Law?

Yes He did.

16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; “THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD.”



Paraphrase
But did the world believe the Gospel? No says Isaiah. Belief comes by hearing, and hearing by revelation. But didn't they receive revelation. Yes they did, no one has an excuse.


What is revelation? It is the knowledge that we have a responsibility to the ability of judging right from wrong God has given us.

Israel received more revelation in keeping with her role as candidate for election into the community of God. Complete revelation taught this:

Quote
We may return to the same conclusion that we reached before: the sacrifice of animals is inadequate to achieve final cleansing, nor can it cleanse anything more than the copies of heavenly things. Then who will bring the definitive sacrifice? A man must do it. A similar point is made indirectly in Num. 35:33-34: "Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Do not defile the land where you live and where I dwell, for I, the LORD, dwell among the Israelites." When a man had shed blood, the man must die. But there is one exception, when the blood of the death of the high priest releases a manslaughterer to return home (Num. 35:25-28). The blood of the high priest has special value. In agreement with this principle, Zech. 3 uses all the symbolism of a defiled human high priest Joshua and then speaks mysteriously of the Branch in connection with which "I will remove the sin of this land in a single day" (Zech. 3:9)

http://www.frame-poythress.org/Poyth...hadow/bl3.html

[RBerman]

I cannot make heads or tails of your argument, FW, but I am glad to see you reading Dr. Poythress.

[footwasher]

I cannot make heads or tails of your argument, FW, but I am glad to see you reading Dr. Poythress.

So let's unpack it a passage at a time:
16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have8 they? Indeed they have; “THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD.”

19 But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says, “I WILL MAKE YOU JEALOUS BY THAT WHICH IS NOT A NATION, BY A NATION WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WILL I ANGER YOU.”

20 And Isaiah is very bold and says, “I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME, I BECAME MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME.”

21 But as for Israel He says, “ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE.”


In the above verse, what is the message that Isaiah claims has reached the ends of the earth?

[RBerman]

So let's unpack it a passage at a time:
16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have8 they? Indeed they have; “THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD.”

19 But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says, “I WILL MAKE YOU JEALOUS BY THAT WHICH IS NOT A NATION, BY A NATION WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WILL I ANGER YOU.”

20 And Isaiah is very bold and says, “I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME, I BECAME MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME.”

21 But as for Israel He says, “ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE.”


In the above verse, what is the message that Isaiah claims has reached the ends of the earth?

Is this a trick question? Isaiah did not say the message had reached the ends of the earth. Isaiah 53:1 says, "Who has believed what he has heard from us?" as part of a prophecy about the coming Messiah. Paul quotes Isaiah, with the point that the Jews indeed did not believe the Messiah when he came: "But not all have obeyed the gospel." (10:16) Paul notes that rejection of Jesus is not a matter of ignorance; those rejecting him have heard of him, just like the stars of which Psalm 19:4 says, "Their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world."

[footwasher]

Is this a trick question? Isaiah did not say the message had reached the ends of the earth. Isaiah 53:1 says, "Who has believed what he has heard from us?" as part of a prophecy about the coming Messiah. Paul quotes Isaiah, with the point that the Jews indeed did not believe the Messiah when he came: "But not all have obeyed the gospel." (10:16) Paul notes that rejection of Jesus is not a matter of ignorance; those rejecting him have heard of him, just like the stars of which Psalm 19:4 says, "Their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world."

Okay, so it's Paul who mixed the text from Psalm 19:

4Their line has gone out through all the earth, And their utterances to the end of the world. In them He has placed a tent for the sun,

with Isaiah's claim that the message was not believed.


So how can Paul claim that the Gospel reached the ends of the world before the coming of Christ?

[RBerman]

Okay, so it's Paul who mixed the text from Psalm 19:

4Their line has gone out through all the earth, And their utterances to the end of the world. In them He has placed a tent for the sun,

with Isaiah's claim that the message was not believed.


So how can Paul claim that the Gospel reached the ends of the world before the coming of Christ?

Paul does not say that the Gospel reached the ends of the world before the coming of Christ. For that matter, Paul doesn't even say that the gospel has reached the ends of the world in his own day. Quite the contrary; just a few paragraphs later (Romans 15:21) Paul will announce his plans to travel to Spain, to preach the gospel of Jesus to "Those who have never been told of him." Clearly he doesn't see that the gospel has already gone everywhere.

In quoting Psalm 19, Paul is comparing the spread of the gospel, starting in Jerusalem and spreading out to reach the Jews scattered throughout Roman empire, to the way the stars give a testimony to everyone who sees them. (He's already hit on that idea in Romans 1, saying that general revelation makes men guilty for rejecting God.) Paul brings this up, as I said before, to show that Jews aren't simply ignorant of the gospel; rather, they have heard it preached by Paul, and have rejected it.

[footwasher]

Paul does not say that the Gospel reached the ends of the world before the coming of Christ. For that matter, Paul doesn't even say that the gospel has reached the ends of the world in his own day. Quite the contrary; just a few paragraphs later (Romans 15:21) Paul will announce his plans to travel to Spain, to preach the gospel of Jesus to "Those who have never been told of him." Clearly he doesn't see that the gospel has already gone everywhere.

In quoting Psalm 19, Paul is comparing the spread of the gospel, starting in Jerusalem and spreading out to reach the Jews oscattered throughout Roman empire, to the way the stars give a testimony to everyone who sees them. (He's already hit on that idea in Romans 1, saying that general revelation makes men guilty for rejecting God.) Paul brings this up, as I said before, to show that Jews aren't simply ignorant of the gospel; rather, they have heard it preached by Paul, and have rejected it.

Okay, so the Gospel is only a completed event by this view.

How is it that Abraham saw Christ and Job knew his Redeemer lived?


I'm aiming for a more complete view of the Gospel available to OT believers, recognizable not just as an understanding of a future Deliverer, but as an understanding of what that Deliverer will do.


Isaiah says in Chapter 65:
2 I spread out my hands all day long to my rebellious people, who lived in a way that is morally unacceptable, and who did what they desired.

Would you consider it possible that Isaiah is speaking of a constant proclamation to Israel, through the prophets, of what God's Seed needed to do?

[RBerman]

Okay, so the Gospel is only a completed event by this view. How is it that Abraham saw Christ and Job knew his Redeemer lived? I'm aiming for a more complete view of the Gospel available to OT believers, recognizable not just as an understanding of a future Deliverer, but as an understanding of what that Deliverer will do.

We don't know how they knew what they knew. The gospel is the good news of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Isaiah says in Chapter 65:
2 I spread out my hands all day long to my rebellious people, who lived in a way that is morally unacceptable, and who did what they desired.

Would you consider it possible that Isaiah is speaking of a constant proclamation to Israel, through the prophets, of what God's Seed needed to do?

Sure. And Romans 10 applies that verse to the Jews who heard the gospel but rejected Jesus.

[footwasher]

We don't know how they knew what they knew. The gospel is the good news of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

But Paul desires to proclaim the Gospel to the Roman church:

14 I am a debtor both to the Greeks and to the barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish. 15 Thus I am eager also to preach the gospel to you who are in Rome. 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is God’s power for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For the righteousness of God is revealed in the gospel from faith to faith, just as it is written, “The righteous by faith will live.” Romans 1

IOW, as many commentaries note, Paul uses the term ”gospel” to mean not the death and resurrection of Christ here, but to mean that our union with Christ is not only forensic but organic. Because of the propitiation and expiation achieved by the Cross, the eklesia is clean, those united with it are empowered, believers can now be functional, ”live” (exile was a traumatic time for Israel, the Lord's Song couldn't be sung in a strange land). The land had powerful properties, the immigrants transplanted into the Land by the Babylonians were smitten by lions, until Levites were sent to perform the rituals required by God (origin of the Samaritan religion).

So similarly, in Isaiah's time, the message , gospel, that was not believed by Israel, but believed by others, the ends of the world , was that those who have trust in God will not be disappointed.

20And Isaiah is very bold and says, “I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME, I BECAME MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME.” 21 But as for Israel He says, “ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE.” Romans 10

However you slice and dice it, those who trusted the Lord were ”saved”. How can those people be saved without faith in Christ, because no one comes to the Father except by Christ, unless Christ is a class or category of belief, ”trust in God for salvation”, an OT Gospel?

[RBerman]

However you slice and dice it, those who trusted the Lord were ”saved”. How can those people be saved without faith in Christ, because no one comes to the Father except by Christ, unless Christ is a class or category of belief, ”trust in God for salvation”, an OT Gospel?

You won't get far comparing OT-era Jews, living under Yahweh's presence, His kings, His prophets, and His appointed sacrificial system, to NT-era pagans operating without any of those. All those things were types of Christ, so that to trust in them was to trust in Christ.