Can the heretic be saved?

[footwasher]

Typical. As usual, you're running to form. You did last a little longer this time round though...

Since we agree that each finds the other's posts unhelpful, there seems little point in continuing on like this.

[RBerman]

Typical. As usual, you're running to form. You did last a little longer this time round though...

There does indeed come a point in every conversation where further participation is at best unhelpful and at worst counterproductive. I'm sure you'll find someone else to debate, though.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

One of the major motifs of the Gospels is Jesus seeking people of faith among His People... There were so precious few... The woman with an issue of blood was one, and there were some others, but most were at best just lost and wandering around looking for truth, and at worst, like Saul/Paul, so deceived that they persecuted the Truth... THAT was the condition of Israel regarding the Faith... The widow had faith, when she gave the last of all she had and threw it into the offering... The rest that had been hers, had doubtless been plundered by Pharisees, perhaps even by her own children... But whenever Christ encountered someone of faith, he marvelled and gave them their request... Some not even Jews...

The works of the Law of Moses were for the Jews the works of faith... And in these works, they increased their faith... That is a part of how God set it up for them... However the Scribes and the Pharisees began to use the Law for their own purposes, instead of to glorify God, and turned the Law of Moses into an elaborate system of petty impositions... As Christ said, they strained out the gnat [from their tea] but swallowed the camel... And in this manner, the faith was eroded into legalistic nonsense... Imposed on others and not followed by the imposers... Christians are still fully capable of doing the same, btw...

And as Paul points out, belief combined with zeal are not enough - The Jews believed, and were zealous, but lacked knowledge...

There were great men of faith in pre-Christian times, and their deeds are recorded, but they did not receive what we receive until we received it, until Christ died and went into Hell and destroyed the power of Death by His Death... And what was it they did not receive until Christ brought them out of Hell? Did they not HAVE the Holy Spirit? Was not the Holy Spirit come upon them? Did they not have the Power of God? Did they not have obedience to God's commandments? Yes, they had all this, but they did not have the one thing that we have who are baptized into Christ... They did not have the ontology of being that we have as new creatures in Christ, for in Christ, we are not who we were, but are new creatures having the seal of the Holy Spirit sealed in our very selves, now a part of us in Him Who is in us... This is what Adam lost in the Garden when he sinned - He lost his Sonship with God... The Holy Spirit departed from the make-up of his soul... And he died... And the Garment of Righteousness which was upon Him was stripped away, and he was naked in his sin, and was ashamed, and tried to hide from God, and blamed the Woman... And he was cast out and could not return, lest he eat of the Tree of Life in this condition and give death immortality in his soul...

The Good News is this: The Kingdom of Heaven is Nigh - Even at the door! The Son of God has incarnated, died for our sins, overcome Death, Resurrected and ascended to His Father in Heaven! And we can enter His Life in His Faith given by Him to us who are upon the earth... Therefore repent [stop sinning] and be baptized into Christ the Son of God, and your previous sins will all be forgiven, and you will become a new creature in Him, for you will be baptized into His Death upon the Cross, and will no longer be subject to this world, and you will take up your own cross in it to die each day following Him, for in Him is the Kingdom of Heaven, and this Kingdom/rulership is suffering violence, and the violent are taking it by force, forcing themselves from sin in repentance, and calling upon the Name of the Lord for His Grace and Mercy, and in this earthly tribulation and suffering, they are finding the joy and peace that passes all human understanding...

That is the Faith given once for all to the Apostles...
Yes, Christ died for your sins...
But even more, His Life can be yours...
If you repent and are baptized into Him...

Arsenios

[footwasher]

Ha!Ha! I apologise, RB. I was just going through a routine we used to follow during Catechism classes in high school, after one of us failed miserably in our puny attempts to defend the faith, and the one playing Devil's advocate gave us the ol' what fer!

There does indeed come a point in every conversation where further participation is at best unhelpful and at worst counterproductive. I'm sure you'll find someone else to debate, though.

[footwasher]

Excellent, GB, and that was the point of the Poythress quote. The Tabernacle has been purified by the blood of the High Priest, of the order of Melchzedek, without ancestry, superior to the type installed in the earthly Tabernacle.

5"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.John 15

ABIDE! ABIDE! ABIDE! In the Vine, in the Tabernacle, in the Body of Christ, in Him.

And kudos on the differentiator between Z & E and the Pharisees. The former followed the whole law, empowered by the Holy Spirit, given on belief. The latter cherry picked the Law, reducing it to its humanistic bare minimum, achievable by human effort.

Good play, monsieur! Magnifique! The Orthodox come through once again!

One of the major motifs of the Gospels is Jesus seeking people of faith among His People... There were so precious few... The woman with an issue of blood was one, and there were some others, but most were at best just lost and wandering around looking for truth, and at worst, like Saul/Paul, so deceived that they persecuted the Truth... THAT was the condition of Israel regarding the Faith... The widow had faith, when she gave the last of all she had and threw it into the offering... The rest that had been hers, had doubtless been plundered by Pharisees, perhaps even by her own children... But whenever Christ encountered someone of faith, he marvelled and gave them their request... Some not even Jews...

The works of the Law of Moses were for the Jews the works of faith... And in these works, they increased their faith... That is a part of how God set it up for them... However the Scribes and the Pharisees began to use the Law for their own purposes, instead of to glorify God, and turned the Law of Moses into an elaborate system of petty impositions... As Christ said, they strained out the gnat [from their tea] but swallowed the camel... And in this manner, the faith was eroded into legalistic nonsense... Imposed on others and not followed by the imposers... Christians are still fully capable of doing the same, btw...

And as Paul points out, belief combined with zeal are not enough - The Jews believed, and were zealous, but lacked knowledge...

There were great men of faith in pre-Christian times, and their deeds are recorded, but they did not receive what we receive until we received it, until Christ died and went into Hell and destroyed the power of Death by His Death... And what was it they did not receive until Christ brought them out of Hell? Did they not HAVE the Holy Spirit? Was not the Holy Spirit come upon them? Did they not have the Power of God? Did they not have obedience to God's commandments? Yes, they had all this, but they did not have the one thing that we have who are baptized into Christ... They did not have the ontology of being that we have as new creatures in Christ, for in Christ, we are not who we were, but are new creatures having the seal of the Holy Spirit sealed in our very selves, now a part of us in Him Who is in us... This is what Adam lost in the Garden when he sinned - He lost his Sonship with God... The Holy Spirit departed from the make-up of his soul... And he died... And the Garment of Righteousness which was upon Him was stripped away, and he was naked in his sin, and was ashamed, and tried to hide from God, and blamed the Woman... And he was cast out and could not return, lest he eat of the Tree of Life in this condition and give death immortality in his soul...

The Good News is this: The Kingdom of Heaven is Nigh - Even at the door! The Son of God has incarnated, died for our sins, overcome Death, Resurrected and ascended to His Father in Heaven! And we can enter His Life in His Faith given by Him to us who are upon the earth... Therefore repent [stop sinning] and be baptized into Christ the Son of God, and your previous sins will all be forgiven, and you will become a new creature in Him, for you will be baptized into His Death upon the Cross, and will no longer be subject to this world, and you will take up your own cross in it to die each day following Him, for in Him is the Kingdom of Heaven, and this Kingdom/rulership is suffering violence, and the violent are taking it by force, forcing themselves from sin in repentance, and calling upon the Name of the Lord for His Grace and Mercy, and in this earthly tribulation and suffering, they are finding the joy and peace that passes all human understanding...

That is the Faith given once for all to the Apostles...
Yes, Christ died for your sins...
But even more, His Life can be yours...
If you repent and are baptized into Him...

Arsenios

[RBerman]

Ha!Ha! I apologise, RB. I was just going through a routine we used to follow during Catechism classes in high school, after one of us failed miserably in our puny attempts to defend the faith, and the one playing Devil's advocate gave us the ol' what fer!

You had catechism classes in high school?

[footwasher]

You had catechism classes in high school?

The great thing about the RCC and the Orthodox: they don't need to reinvent the wheel.

Case in point, the present discussion.

And they are pretty consistent and compehensive doctrinaire-wise.

Yes I was baptized in High School, after conversion. Did I have to disclose that as part of the case for the prosecution?

;)

[RBerman]

Yes I was baptized in High School, after conversion. Did I have to disclose that as part of the case for the prosecution?

Nope.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

The great thing about the RCC and the Orthodox: they don't need to reinvent the wheel.

fwiw, the Orthodox never invented the wheel in the first place, let alone re-invent it...

We only pass on what we have received... No more, no less...

Speaking of which, there is a tombstone in Tombstone, AZ...
Well, they got lots o' tombstones...
But this one has inscribed on it:

HERE LIES LESTER MOORE
TOOK 6 SLUGS FROM A .44
NO LESS, NO MORE


Arsenios

[footwasher]

I like this one as well:

Me and my wife.
My son John and his wife.
We four
No more

I think the guy below the tombstone had replied to the question, ” So who is my neighbor that I should love him?”

:)

The good thing about tradition is that it's a summation of years of teaching. The bad thing is that with a schism, everything that is NOT INVENTED HERE has to be REINVENTED HERE, or it will not pass muster. So out goes the bathwater, and out goes the baby as well. Bottomline: No residual wisdom. Till you build up your own tradition.

Which will take time. And brains. You don't get an Aquinas every millennium, do ya?

Many years later, I was re- baptized in a tiny evangelical church in London. I'd drunk of the rock in the RCC, but not everything was of Christ. They must have said, ” If he had been one of us he would not have left.” I would have had to agree.

The lack of catechism pre re-baptism surprised me, though. Taking the memorial thing a bit far I thought. Some part of me misses the sacramental part of the RCC a bit...

[Rdr. Arsenios]

The good thing about tradition is that it's a summation of years of teaching. The bad thing is that with a schism, everything that is NOT INVENTED HERE has to be REINVENTED HERE, or it will not pass muster. So out goes the bathwater, and out goes the baby as well. Bottomline: No residual wisdom. Till you build up your own tradition.

Which will take time. And brains. You don't get an Aquinas every millennium, do ya?

Many years later, I was re- baptized in a tiny evangelical church in London. I'd drunk of the rock in the RCC, but not everything was of Christ. They must have said, ” If he had been one of us he would not have left.” I would have had to agree.

The lack of catechism pre re-baptism surprised me, though. Taking the memorial thing a bit far I thought. Some part of me misses the sacramental part of the RCC a bit...

Well, there is Holy Tradition, and pious traditions... The first is the deposit of the Faith, and the second is its applications in various ethnic locations, and it can vary quite a lot - the Latins and Serbs and Greeks and Russians and Copts and Ethiopians and Anglicans and on and on - Ideally [and I know, they are not all in Communiion one with another] they have ONE Holy Tradition, a multitude of local pious traditions... In fact, the Orthodox had a fairly recent ruling defining as heresy and anathematizing the identification of one ethnicity's predominance - And if I have it right, it was because the Greeks claimed to still have the living language in which the Bible was written, and so along came the Serbs, claiming that St.'s Kyrill and Methodius had built THEIR language in writing ONLY for divine services, and the Ethiopians came along and claimed their FAR MORE direct connection with the original Jewish Services, and the whole mess headed south, and was checked by the ruling...

The Holy Communion of the Eastern Orthodox Church began with the 5 great Sees of Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Thessalonica [Greece], and Satan has been trying to divide the Body of Christ from the beginnings... Rome departed a thousand years ago, and sub-divided 500 years ago with the Protestant Reformation, which has in turn subdivided ad-nauseum to the point where now every person is their own "theologian" and comes to T-Web to argue for their particular point of view... Latin Rome has consistently, for a thousand years, refused to subject Herself to the rulings of the Church as a whole via the Ecumenical Councils, indeed asserting Her so-called 'Petrine Papal Supremacy' over them, and as a consequence has suffered being out of Communion with the Orthodox for these thousand years... She has believed, and still does believe, in Her own authority over the Church... The Orthodox have no such delusions... Our patriarchs come, and our patriarchs go - They are not the essence of the Church - Christ is...

So that for us, traditions enhance, and do not detract from, the unchanging Holy Tradition of the Faith given once, for all, to the Saints... And as an experiential matter, each Church has its own particular blessing which it confers upon those it Communes... And on those for whom it prays... And all of it through the Holy Spirit... The Russians differ from the Greeks, and Moscow from Kiev, and in Kiev, one Church from its neighbor down the block... All to the Glory of God!

And nothing is "re-invented" but is merely applies according to the reality of the faithful DOING the Services and the ministries... From language to culture to family relationships to particular struggles with sins... The person of the persons is honored in God's working through him or her... No cookie-cutter Christians, and yet no real sharp edges either, for mutual obedience is the operative key to functioning within the Body of Christ...

A big part of the Latin typical discipleship is rebellion against Church Authority, departure, prodigality, humbling, and returning to the Latin fold... This kind of rebellion is typically NOT found in Orthodoxy - Our venture into prodigality tends to be more along the lines of falling into weakness regarding our personal sins, and returning when we can no longer even "eat the hogs' husks" in this foreign land of darkness, and seeking our nurture in penitential repentance within the warm embrace of our Mother, the Church...

If one finds oneself "reinventing" tradition, one should know that one is a prodigal and is reaching for husks that will be snatched away by powers you will not want anything to do with... And that your return may be closer than you think...

Arsenios

[maudman]

I like this one as well:

Me and my wife.
My son John and his wife.
We four
No more

I think the guy below the tombstone had replied to the question, ” So who is my neighbor that I should love him?”

:)

The good thing about tradition is that it's a summation of years of teaching. The bad thing is that with a schism, everything that is NOT INVENTED HERE has to be REINVENTED HERE, or it will not pass muster. So out goes the bathwater, and out goes the baby as well. Bottomline: No residual wisdom. Till you build up your own tradition.

Which will take time. And brains. You don't get an Aquinas every millennium, do ya?

Many years later, I was re- baptized in a tiny evangelical church in London. I'd drunk of the rock in the RCC, but not everything was of Christ. They must have said, ” If he had been one of us he would not have left.” I would have had to agree.

The lack of catechism pre re-baptism surprised me, though. Taking the memorial thing a bit far I thought. Some part of me misses the sacramental part of the RCC a bit...

Hello Footwasher..

Your post are wonderful and I can sense that sense of Humer that catholics have.. Your witt Is well refined.. I know where you're coming from at least I think I do? We have had similar journey's it seems.. But anyway Peace and God bless... George is classic too... He and I both have at times the Demon of passive aggression.. We share the same Spirit it seems at times.. Anyway enjoy your post..

Peace and God Bless...

[footwasher]

Hi Maudman,

Blessings!

Yup, same journey, but I'm no longer RC. I still study their work, and they are very meticulous and consistent.

In Reformedland, its a bit like the Wild, Wild West!

Judges 21:25In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes.

BTW, thank you for the kind words!

Hello Footwasher..

Your post are wonderful and I can sense that sense of Humer that catholics have.. Your witt Is well refined.. I know where you're coming from at least I think I do? We have had similar journey's it seems.. But anyway Peace and God bless... George is classic too... He and I both have at times the Demon of passive aggression.. We share the same Spirit it seems at times.. Anyway enjoy your post..

Peace and God Bless...

[footwasher]

George Blaisdel wrote,

But whenever Christ encountered someone of faith, he marvelled and gave them their request... Some not even Jews...”

5 And when Jesus entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, imploring Him, 6 and saying, “Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, fearfully tormented.” 7 Jesus said to him, “I will come and heal him.” 8 But the centurion said, “Lord, I am not worthy for You to come under my roof, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 “For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, ‘Go!’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come!’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this!’ and he does it.” 10 Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who were following, “Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel. 11 “I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13 And Jesus said to the centurion, “Go; it shall be done for you as you have believed.” And the servant was healed that very moment.

Great example!

Since all are agreed that the gentiles are ”the sheep of other folds”, can we be generous and state that


There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


IOW, Jews and pagans are in the same situation, with regard to righteousness, before God. Can we conclude therefore that the commandment

17 ‘You shall not hate your fellow countryman in your heart; you may surely reprove your neighbor, but shall not incur sin because of him. 18 ‘You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.

teaches that one should love those who are ” doers of the Law” rather than the religious fellow countryman, or love those who follow the spirit of the Law rather than those who are baptized, attend church, read the Bible, don't drink, don't smoke , but do not have works of justice, mercy and love in their lives?

That these people may be godly Hindus, Muslims or Taoists?

After all, Jesus said our neighbor is the one who anyone who followed the Law, even of they did not possess it.

36“Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell into the robbers’ hands?” 37 And he said, “The one who showed mercy toward him.” Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do the same.”

IOW, love those who follow the law, who show justice, mercy and love.

And the way to show love?

John 15:13 ”Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

George Blaisdel wrote,

But whenever Christ encountered someone of faith, he marvelled and gave them their request... Some not even Jews...”

5 And when Jesus entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, imploring Him, 6 and saying, “Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, fearfully tormented.” 7 Jesus said to him, “I will come and heal him.” 8 But the centurion said, “Lord, I am not worthy for You to come under my roof, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 “For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, ‘Go!’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come!’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this!’ and he does it.” 10 Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who were following, “Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel. 11 “I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13 And Jesus said to the centurion, “Go; it shall be done for you as you have believed.” And the servant was healed that very moment.

Great example!

Since all are agreed that the gentiles are ”the sheep of other folds”, can we be generous and state that


There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


IOW, Jews and pagans are in the same situation, with regard to righteousness, before God. Can we conclude therefore that the commandment

17 ‘You shall not hate your fellow countryman in your heart; you may surely reprove your neighbor, but shall not incur sin because of him. 18 ‘You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.

teaches that one should love those who are ” doers of the Law” rather than the religious fellow countryman, or love those who follow the spirit of the Law rather than those who are baptized, attend church, read the Bible, don't drink, don't smoke , but do not have works of justice, mercy and love in their lives?

That these people may be godly Hindus, Muslims or Taoists?

After all, Jesus said our neighbor is the one who anyone who followed the Law, even of they did not possess it.

36“Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell into the robbers’ hands?” 37 And he said, “The one who showed mercy toward him.” Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do the same.”

IOW, love those who follow the law, who show justice, mercy and love.

And the way to show love?

John 15:13 ”Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

Thank-you - That was a thoughtful reply...

The Lord in Spirit [Via the Law] is teaching the children of Israel to get along with one another...
To love one's neighbor as one's self...
That love is expanded in the parable of the Good Samaritan...
For the neighbor is anyone who does another good...
And we are not to love only followers or fulfillers of the Law
But are to love all mankind as self...
For this Jesus did, drawing ALL to Himself on the Cross...
Desiring that ALL should be saved...
And come to the knowledge of the Truth [Himself]...

So that your error is your partiality when you say:
"IOW, love those who follow the law,
who show justice, mercy and love."
For we are to love even our enemies...
We are to bless those who hate us...
And despitefully use us for selfish gain...

Christ died for sinners...
And we are to follow Him...

Arsenios