Bad Boys, Bad Boys, Whatcha Gonna do?

[nrajeff]

Because eternal life is not a mortal idea, it is spiritual. Thus, His flesh and blood were spiritual things that must be eaten and drank in a spiritual manner.

My Catholic friend showed me solid evidence that Transubstantiation was a doctrine of very early Christianity. How do you explain that? I didn't have a good refutation of his evidence.

Again, this rests on the evidence provided. I would provide HIS word, while you would provide your own.

No--you would provide what YOU BELIEVE to be His words, and I would provide what I believe to be His words. That's the bottom line. You have no monopoly on objectively verifiable correct theology or soteriology. You have to rely on words that humans wrote on pages, just like everyone else does.

[OtherCheek]

Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels,
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

Notice the angels and the righteous humans are separate.

Luk 20:36 for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

Again, notice humans and angels are separate.

I didn't notice that at all.

[nrajeff]

I didn't notice that at all.

Maybe it's there in the fine print, next to "Offer void in Puerto Rico."
Or maybe it's only in the CEV Bible ?

[Sparko]

Nah, I was just ignoring YOU! :) Your question isn't a bad one, regardless how simple it is.


That's easy: Satan is more evil than I am. Compile a list of the bad things I have done, and then compare it with the list of bad things Satan has done. It's not even close, plus, Satan was "in the know" the whole time, whereas I am "blind" according to CP.

My biggest sin is probably just hanging out in this waste of a forum for such a large part of my life.

so you think you are a better judge of how evil you are compared to Satan than God is? And you think that if God disagrees with you that he is less moral than you are? Should God seek you out for advice, Jeff? To ask you where the line is drawn as to when someone deserves eternal hell or not? Where do you think that line should be drawn? Just above your level of "evilness?" Hitler's level?

Maybe you should read Job 38 before deigning to tell God how to judge you or anyone else.

Job 38:1Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:

2 “Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone —
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?

[nrajeff]

so you think you are a better judge of how evil you are compared to Satan than God is?

I am just AGREEING WITH GOD that Satan is the evillist. Not even Ed Decker or Hitler tops Satan when it comes to being evil. But hey, if you have a Bible verse that says that I will end up running hell instead of Satan, because I am more evil than he is, then lay it on me. Otherwise, you're calling God a liar.

And you think that if God disagrees with you that he is less moral than you are?

If God disagrees with the idea that Satan is more evil than I am, then God is disagreeing with HIMSELF.

Should God seek you out for advice, Jeff?

If He finds Himself forced to seek either you or me for advice, then sure. Pick me.

To ask you where the line is drawn as to when someone deserves eternal hell or not? Where do you think that line should be drawn? Just above your level of "evilness?" Hitler's level?

How about just above the level of the person who invented telemarketing?

[Sparko]

I am just AGREEING WITH GOD that Satan is the evillist. Not even Ed Decker or Hitler tops Satan when it comes to being evil. But hey, if you have a Bible verse that says that I will end up running hell instead of Satan, because I am more evil than he is, then lay it on me. Otherwise, you're calling God a liar.



If God disagrees with the idea that Satan is more evil than I am, then God is disagreeing with HIMSELF.


If He finds Himself forced to seek either you or me for advice, then sure. Pick me.


How about just above the level of the person who invented telemarketing?

ah playing stupid again.

No jeff, you said that God is moral for sending Satan to hell forever but not moral if he sent you. Sure Satan is more evil than you are, but where do you draw the line at who goes to hell forever and who doesn't and what makes you think that you have the right to decide that line and not God? If God decided that ANY sin was the line between heaven and hell forever, why do you think that would make him immoral? Just because he disagreed with you?

What if God decided that 1000 sins was the magic number? Would that be OK with you? What if you had 1001 sins and God wanted to send YOU to hell forever, would he still be moral?

[OtherCheek]

Because they have SEEN the truth face to face and rejected it.

But haven't they always been "believers"? If not, then what MADE them become believers?

[nrajeff]

ah playing stupid again.

You left out "with" between "playing" and "stupid."

No jeff, you said that God is moral for sending Satan to hell forever but not moral if he sent you.

Actually, if you go back to my original answer(s) to the question, I think I said that if LDS beliefs about God turn out to all be wrong, and He's actually a capricious tyrant, then I will acknowledge it, but I don't plan on worshiping such a being, EVEN IF He sends me to hell for it.

Sure Satan is more evil than you are, but where do you draw the line at who goes to hell forever and who doesn't and what makes you think that you have the right to decide that line and not God?

I have free will to form my own opinions. God gave that gift to me. In the hypothetical scenario, we don't get to draw the line, remember? We find out, on Judgment Day or whenever, that our beliefs about God were all wrong. That doesn't deprive God of the power to do what He wants with us. The question was about how we would respond to finding out our beliefs were wrong. It doesn't grant us any power to change God's mind. Again, reread the scenario.

If God decided that ANY sin was the line between heaven and hell forever, why do you think that would make him immoral? Just because he disagreed with you?

See above. In the scenario, God still gets to decide stuff, and we react to finding out that all our beliefs about Him were wrong.

What if God decided that 1000 sins was the magic number?

Then it would make God a Lutheran? Wait, Luther said even 1000 murders and adulteries per day can't keep us out of heaven or something like that.

Would that be OK with you?

If God turns out to be a literal Trinity being, it will be FINE with me. But if He turns out to be the immature, jealous, petty, capricious being that I DON'T BELIEVE HIM TO BE, then it won't be okay with me, but what can I do about it? Nothing, except choose to not worship such a being. Or, choose to worship such a being, I guess, but I'd RATHER go to hell than make that choice. I think I already said as much.

What if you had 1001 sins and God wanted to send YOU to hell forever, would he still be moral?

If those sins consisted of believing, 1001 times, that God is fair, mature, merciful, forgiving, and wise, then I'd go with "no."

[OtherCheek]

ah playing stupid again.

No jeff, you said that God is moral for sending Satan to hell forever but not moral if he sent you. Sure Satan is more evil than you are, but where do you draw the line at who goes to hell forever and who doesn't and what makes you think that you have the right to decide that line and not God? If God decided that ANY sin was the line between heaven and hell forever, why do you think that would make him immoral? Just because he disagreed with you?

What if God decided that 1000 sins was the magic number? Would that be OK with you? What if you had 1001 sins and God wanted to send YOU to hell forever, would he still be moral?

I would not see any justice or mercy or morality in such a policy and so I could not worship such a being. God would have to force my mind to see and agree that the 1000 sin allowance represents mercy, and the 1001 sin cutoff represents justice.

What if God turned out to be a tyrannical being? Would you worship him and follow him anyway?

[Cow Poke]

I would not see any justice or mercy or morality in such a policy and so I could not worship such a being. God would have to force my mind to see and agree that the 1000 sin allowance represents mercy, and the 1001 sin cutoff represents justice.

But you just totally accept anything Smith says because he's a for really prophet?

[Bill the Cat]

I didn't notice that at all.

Then look again. The angels are listed separately from the humans.

[Bill the Cat]

My Catholic friend showed me solid evidence that Transubstantiation was a doctrine of very early Christianity. How do you explain that? I didn't have a good refutation of his evidence.

None is needed. Both views were equally held, and Augustine himself called the Eucharist a "figure" in his "On Christian Doctrine". Irenaeus also held to a doctrine close to consubstantiation. Additionally, the official doctrine of transubstantiation was not codified until the Fourth Lateran Council 1215, and drew on Aristotle's definition of substance.

No--you would provide what YOU BELIEVE to be His words,

No. I already told you I would offer no interpretation, just the verses I listed.

and I would provide what I believe to be His words.

No, you would provide judgement of God based on your arbitrary definition of "fair", and then you would tell him "deal with it".

That's the bottom line. You have no monopoly on objectively verifiable correct theology or soteriology. You have to rely on words that humans wrote on pages, just like everyone else does.

And that's the difference between us. I would rely on the words themselves, while you would provide commentary on your own opinion of "fair"

[Bill the Cat]

That's easy: Satan is more evil than I am. Compile a list of the bad things I have done, and then compare it with the list of bad things Satan has done. It's not even close, plus, Satan was "in the know" the whole time, whereas I am "blind" according to CP.

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

My biggest sin is probably just hanging out in this waste of a forum for such a large part of my life.

You know what they say about opinions, right? They are like anuses. Everyone has them, and they always stink.

[Bill the Cat]

Maybe it's there in the fine print, next to "Offer void in Puerto Rico."
Or maybe it's only in the CEV Bible ?

Or maybe it is in Joseph Smith's hat, along with the golden plates. How big was that hat anyway?

[Sparko]

You left out "with" between "playing" and "stupid."

Actually, if you go back to my original answer(s) to the question, I think I said that if LDS beliefs about God turn out to all be wrong, and He's actually a capricious tyrant, then I will acknowledge it, but I don't plan on worshiping such a being, EVEN IF He sends me to hell for it.


I have free will to form my own opinions. God gave that gift to me. In the hypothetical scenario, we don't get to draw the line, remember? We find out, on Judgment Day or whenever, that our beliefs about God were all wrong. That doesn't deprive God of the power to do what He wants with us. The question was about how we would respond to finding out our beliefs were wrong. It doesn't grant us any power to change God's mind. Again, reread the scenario.



See above. In the scenario, God still gets to decide stuff, and we react to finding out that all our beliefs about Him were wrong.


Then it would make God a Lutheran? Wait, Luther said even 1000 murders and adulteries per day can't keep us out of heaven or something like that.

If God turns out to be a literal Trinity being, it will be FINE with me. But if He turns out to be the immature, jealous, petty, capricious being that I DON'T BELIEVE HIM TO BE, then it won't be okay with me, but what can I do about it? Nothing, except choose to not worship such a being. Or, choose to worship such a being, I guess, but I'd RATHER go to hell than make that choice. I think I already said as much.


If those sins consisted of believing, 1001 times, that God is fair, mature, merciful, forgiving, and wise, then I'd go with "no."

Your original comment was

I draw the line at worshiping capricious tyrants who would send me to eternal torment for the sin of having high standards when it comes to what I expect the character of a God to be.

You said you think that God would be a capricious tyrant if he didn't agree with YOUR moral standards of what HE should be like.

OK so you want to avoid the topic and play dumb. that's fine. Try that with God when you get there. I don't think it will work for ya.