Marriage is:

[Cerebrum123]

Not rituals, but ordinances, rules, laws, dogma. He clearly says these are of no value. dogmatizō

Now perhaps you are agreeing that they are of no value within the church - rules and dogma created by the church and enforced on the members of the church. This is what Paul clearly is stating.

But your feel that it is ok to establish rules and dogma through the government and allow the government to enforce dogma on its citizens - both church members and not?

Vivian, you are confusing religious rituals, and laws based on morality, they are not one and the same regardless of how you are trying to spin things. You seem to be forgetting the first of the two greatest commandments that Jesus gave.

Matthew 22:37
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’

This includes OBEYING His laws that He has made, and clearly to Him homosexual sex is an abomination, and marriage is to be between ONE man and ONE woman. Just how it was between Adam and Eve. God made them to be what marriage SHOULD be, and you are violently opposed to obeying even this simple ideal that God has set in place. Why? What makes it so hard for you to understand that God wants us to be obedient to Him? You also don't seem to understand that loving thy neighbor has nothing to do with sex, romance, or anything of that sort. It has to do with doing the greatest amount of good for the greatest amount of people, and homosexual marriage IS NOT GOOD AT ALL. It simply destroys another of the ideals that God put in place, and disobeying God is not good for anyone.

Proverbs 14:34
Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin condemns any people.

We should not be allowing our nation to be rampant with sin. When the Israelite's turned their back on God, they were judged for it, and we will be too if we don't stop our downhill slide into immorality.

[Vivian]

Vivian, you are confusing religious rituals, and laws based on morality, they are not one and the same regardless of how you are trying to spin things. You seem to be forgetting the first of the two greatest commandments that Jesus gave.

Matthew 22:37
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’

This includes OBEYING His laws that He has made, and clearly to Him homosexual sex is an abomination, and marriage is to be between ONE man and ONE woman. Just how it was between Adam and Eve. God made them to be what marriage SHOULD be, and you are violently opposed to obeying even this simple ideal that God has set in place. Why? What makes it so hard for you to understand that God wants us to be obedient to Him? You also don't seem to understand that loving thy neighbor has nothing to do with sex, romance, or anything of that sort. It has to do with doing the greatest amount of good for the greatest amount of people, and homosexual marriage IS NOT GOOD AT ALL. It simply destroys another of the ideals that God put in place, and disobeying God is not good for anyone.

Proverbs 14:34
Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin condemns any people.

We should not be allowing our nation to be rampant with sin. When the Israelite's turned their back on God, they were judged for it, and we will be too if we don't stop our downhill slide into immorality.

See you are proving Paul's point! Yes, we are called to do this and to do that, that it is righteous to do this and to do that. But no where are we told to force others into righteousness with laws! This is what Paul was saying, you cannot make others righteous by passing a law, whether you are a church body or a government body. Laws we adhere to ourselves, being our own policeman is of value, but laws we enforce upon others is of no value.

Read what you quoted from scripture!

No where does it say that a government or a church should force others to be righteous! This is what Paul was addressing, making others do this or do that through our rules and laws is of no value.

Surely we have clearly state our positions and there is no need for further discussion.

Shalom, my friend!

[Cerebrum123]

See you are proving Paul's point! Yes, we are called to do this and to do that, that it is righteous to do this and to do that. But no where are we told to force others into righteousness with laws! This is what Paul was saying, you cannot make others righteous by passing a law, whether you are a church body or a government body. Laws we adhere to ourselves, being our own policeman is of value, but laws we enforce upon others is of no value.

Read what you quoted from scripture!

No where does it say that a government or a church should force others to be righteous! This is what Paul was addressing, making others do this or do that through our rules and laws is of no value.

Surely we have clearly state our positions and there is no need for further discussion.

Shalom, my friend!

Paul never said anything like that, and you have not shown this to be the case. You obviously can't support your views with Scripture, and for very obvious reasons. This conversation is going nowhere, so if you want to stop, that is fine with me.

[Conductor42]

We ought to just re-write our laws to the point that "marriage" is no longer on the books, period.
We are wasting our time arresting polygamists and getting mad that homosexuals are using a word in reference to themselves.
It's not going to change anyone's personal behavior.

[Nathan Poe]

We ought to just re-write our laws to the point that "marriage" is no longer on the books, period.
We are wasting our time arresting polygamists and getting mad that homosexuals are using a word in reference to themselves.
It's not going to change anyone's personal behavior.

Funny thing is, a lot of the arguments I've heard against gay marriage revolve around this -- some people just don't want to give up a word... or accept that they already gave it up a long time ago.

[joel]

So we have a lot of people wanting and putting a lot of effort into something that Apostle Paul tells us is no value - making rules telling us what we can and can't do, such as making laws saying that we can't marry others of the same sex!

I disagree with your premise. It's not about rules saying people can't marry others of the same sex. Rather, I think the Biblical response is that "same-sex marriage" is a logical contradiction, like "married bachelor". It is absurd to be for or against "same-sex marriage", or to have rules about it, because there cannot possibly be such a thing. Just as it would be ridiculous to have rules against drawing "square circles" (or becoming a "married bachelor"), because the thing itself is logically impossible.


Also existing "marriage" laws do not say what you can't do. They say what the state does--issuing pieces of paper under certain circumstances.

[Nathan Poe]

Also existing "marriage" laws do not say what you can't do. They say what the state does--issuing pieces of paper under certain circumstances.

And when the state decides to add one more circumstance in which they'd issue that piece of paper, people just freak out. Makes you wonder why?

[joel]

And when the state decides to add one more circumstance in which they'd issue that piece of paper, people just freak out. Makes you wonder why?

They shouldn't be issuing the paper at all.
Issuing more of it is a change in the wrong direction.

It's not even a change in the direction of equality. (increasing the subset of conditions in which special privileges are granted) The equality argument is bogus.

Also, as I pointed out, people "freak out" also because it is a distortion of language and reason: just as if the government were to start declaring certain people "married bachelors", or "human ostriches".

[Nathan Poe]

isn't it true that the church didn't declare marriage a sacrament until about the 12th or 13th century? In fact, didn't the earlier Christian thinkers (including Paul) preach against marriage?

[KingsGambit]

isn't it true that the church didn't declare marriage a sacrament until about the 12th or 13th century? In fact, didn't the earlier Christian thinkers (including Paul) preach against marriage?

Interesting. I don't know about when it was declared a sacrament; that could be right for all I know. Paul didn't forbid marriage but did write that it can be an encumbrance, but did say that if one can't control their lust they should marry and explicitly did say that marriage is not wrong. And yeah, marriage did end up getting kind of a bad rap through some of the ascetic extremes of some wings of the church through the centuries, such as Hermas, who discouraged even sex within marriage. (Paul, for what it's worth, did say that married couples should have sex frequently).

[joel]

isn't it true that the church didn't declare marriage a sacrament until about the 12th or 13th century? In fact, didn't the earlier Christian thinkers (including Paul) preach against marriage?

Augustine of Hippo (around A.D.400) considered marriage to be a sacrament.
I don't know whether he was the earliest of the Christian writings we have.

[Andius]

didn't the earlier Christian thinkers (including Paul) preach against marriage?

In the case of Paul of Tarsus, he taught it only in proverbial fashion. ergo;

http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/7-6.htm

Concession, not command. He only taught it as a suggestion, a proverb, since it included many perks that facilitated mobilization (especially on the mission of spreading the gospel, one doesn't have to worry about maintaining a household.)