Marriage is:

[Cerebrum123]

I did not see faith within Mormonism affected when the segregation and persecution of blacks was brought to an end. And do not expect to see faith within Mormonism affected when the segregation and persecution of gays is brought to an end.

I do though recall conversations beforehand indicating a belief that one could not question the stand on blacks without questioning one's faith in the Church, just as we are see with the issue of homosexuality. This idea of protecting marriage from homosexuality that is being defended will be revealed to be a shadow, unreal, just as the idea of protecting the priesthood from blacks was revealed to likewise be false.

Can you give me an example of the "segregation" of homosexuals? Persecution I won't deny, but homosexuals are guilty of persecution as well. So, can you show me the homosexual only schools, or water fountains etc.? The two issues are not the same, and comparing them is ludicrous.

[Vivian]

Can you give me an example of the "segregation" of homosexuals? Persecution I won't deny, but homosexuals are guilty of persecution as well. So, can you show me the homosexual only schools, or water fountains etc.? The two issues are not the same, and comparing them is ludicrous.

There was segregation within the body of Mormonism - blacks were not allowed to hold the priesthood, thus were not allowed to participate in the Sunday priesthood meetings. All other men were in these meetings, but they could not enter through the doors, thus they were segregated, separated from the other men during these meetings. Are homosexuals allowed to hold the priesthood, allowed through the doors of the priesthood meetings? If not, then they are segregated. Even worse, homosexuals are segregated completely from the church and the church meetings/buildings, yes? Segregation means the act of setting someone apart from others. (Some segregation is good such as segregating pedophiles from children. But some is not good.)

I grew up Mormon, and as a little girl my Sunday school teachers would talk about blacks, speaking about how 'different' from others they were (examples of different morals were given). I was taught that they had committed sin in the pre-existence so they were given black skin as a mark. Thus blacks had chosen to be black by choosing to sin.

The same occurs today, with gays I hear the same sort of rhetoric out of the mouths of Mormons and others. That homosexuals choose to be gay, by choosing to sin, and that they are different, have different morals.

The only reason that the issue with blacks and gays is different is because the leadership of the Church has not yet reversed their stand. Soon, the populace will realize that gays are no different than straights, they are just born with a different sexual orientation, and it is those who perceive them and treat them differently, those who do not love gays and straights both as if they were them selves, who are the ones guilty of not loving.

But as stated I am sure that the Church will change their position with gays as it did with blacks, without anyone being blamed or without anyone's faith in the Church being shaken.

The question that is legitimate, methinks, is why the Church lags behind the populace in drastic changes in its moral positions? Giving the appearance that God gives in to the world, changing his moral positions when pressured by the world to do so? The same can be said of orthodoxy. **

**I do not believe this is what occurring, as shared I believe that humanity is evolving, so the manifestation of Divine morality, we can call it, shifts as we are increasingly able to love without restriction being placed upon us.


Shalom!

[Cerebrum123]

There was segregation within the body of Mormonism - blacks were not allowed to hold the priesthood, thus were not allowed to participate in the Sunday priesthood meetings. All other men were in these meetings, but they could not enter through the doors, thus they were segregated, separated from the other men during these meetings. Are homosexuals allowed to hold the priesthood, allowed through the doors of the priesthood meetings? If not, then they are segregated. Even worse, homosexuals are segregated completely from the church and the church meetings/buildings, yes? Segregation means the act of setting someone apart from others. (Some segregation is good such as segregating pedophiles from children. But some is not good.)

I grew up Mormon, and as a little girl my Sunday school teachers would talk about blacks, speaking about how 'different' from others they were (examples of different morals were given). I was taught that they had committed sin in the pre-existence so they were given black skin as a mark. Thus blacks had chosen to be black by choosing to sin.

The same occurs today, with gays I hear the same sort of rhetoric out of the mouths of Mormons and others. That homosexuals choose to be gay, by choosing to sin, and that they are different, have different morals.

The only reason that the issue with blacks and gays is different is because the leadership of the Church has not yet reversed their stand. Soon, the populace will realize that gays are no different than straights, they are just born with a different sexual orientation, and it is those who perceive them and treat them differently, those who do not love gays and straights both as if they were them selves, who are the ones guilty of not loving.

But as stated I am sure that the Church will change their position with gays as it did with blacks, without anyone being blamed or without anyone's faith in the Church being shaken.

The question that is legitimate, methinks, is why the Church lags behind the populace in drastic changes in its moral positions? Giving the appearance that God gives in to the world, changing his moral positions when pressured by the world to do so? The same can be said of orthodoxy. **

**I do not believe this is what occurring, as shared I believe that humanity is evolving, so the manifestation of Divine morality, we can call it, shifts as we are increasingly able to love without restriction being placed upon us.


Shalom!

It's still different. A homosexual who engages in homosexual sex is WILLINGLY breaking the rules of the Mormon church, and pretty much every other church as well. Besides, I was talking in the public sphere, and not the Mormon church. Can you give examples of homosexuals being segregated in the PUBLIC sphere? These two issues are different, and you asserting that they are the same for the majority of people is still ridiculous, and is actually a mockery of what black people had to go through during the Civil Rights Movement.

[Vivian]

It's still different. A homosexual who engages in homosexual sex is WILLINGLY breaking the rules of the Mormon church, and pretty much every other church as well. Besides, I was talking in the public sphere, and not the Mormon church. Can you give examples of homosexuals being segregated in the PUBLIC sphere? These two issues are different, and you asserting that they are the same for the majority of people is still ridiculous, and is actually a mockery of what black people had to go through during the Civil Rights Movement.

History will prove their similarities whether or not we able to seethem now. Both are born of ignorance, of holding onto an old paradigm, and old way of thinking, believing, eg the traditions of men, and not letting the Living Spirit of Christ evolve us into His Image. In Christ, there is no male or female, there is no slave or master. Holding onto these shadows of the physical keeps us from becoming like Christ, keeps us from developing the Mind of Christ.


Do you not see? If there is no male of female in Christ, then holding onto one way of sexual orientation over another is keeping us separate from Christ. None of this exists in Christ. There are no barriers such we define them, such as marriage is this or marriage is not that. There is no marriage in Christ, so holding to one definition over another is keeping us separate!

Shalom!

[OtherCheek]

History will prove their similarities whether or not we able to seethem now. Both are born of ignorance, of holding onto an old paradigm, and old way of thinking, believing, eg the traditions of men, and not letting the Living Spirit of Christ evolve us into His Image. In Christ, there is no male or female, there is no slave or master. Holding onto these shadows of the physical keeps us from becoming like Christ, keeps us from developing the Mind of Christ.

This doesn't mean that everyone is neuter in Christ. It means that God is fair and just to all. He denies no one to come unto him. But he does have laws covering morality.

Moses 3:24
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife; and they shall be one flesh.

Genesis 2:24
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Ephesians 5:31
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

Abraham 5:18
18 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh.

Matthew 19:5
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Much different than the scriptures that describe God's justice and mercy being meted out the same and without regard to color, gender, bond, or free, etc.

[Vivian]

Hi OC!

Thank you for your reply and I understand and know that this issue is very dear to your heart, and that your faith resides in the LDS Church. But if might say, you read the Bible like a kindergartner reading an Organic Chemistry Textbook...let me explicate...

This doesn't mean that everyone is neuter in Christ. It means that God is fair and just to all. He denies no one to come unto him. But he does have laws covering morality.

Like a parent has rules about bedtime? Parents make rules for their children because given their limited development, their limited understanding, they need rules until they mature sufficiently to make decisions for themselves. There is nothing right or wrong about this bed time or that, other than parents decide what is a good time for their children to go to bed.

Remember what Jesus had to say about the Law? Man was not made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath was made for man. The Law is a gift to us, to give us a standard of living, until we are able to define the standard for ourselves. The Law does not stand above or before men! Just like family rules do not stand above or before the children, they are flexible given what is deemed best for the children.

It is the same with God's Law. As Jesus also said, if we get lost in the letter, it is death to us. The Law is death without wisdom in understanding as to why such and such was given as guidance. When we understand the Spirit, the Wisdom and Understanding behind God's guidelines, then we can alter them and adjust them keeping them true to that Spirit.

When you learn the Spirit behind the Bible's guidance on marriage, then you will be able to adjust the rules to better manifest the Spirit behind them in physicality.

The rules were made for the children. When the children mature they become the rule makers. Understand?

Moses 3:24
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife; and they shall be one flesh.

Genesis 2:24
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

For what reason?

Because woman was taken out of man, or more accurately 'ishshah was taken out of adam. Do understand what this means? That at one time there was not ‘male and female’, the was just Adam, the Human One of Being. To remember what we were before, neither man nor woman, neither female or male, one being that contained both the feminine and masculine, we are given two genders in physicality. We are given a longing for one another, and in our union together some memory is awakened of the bliss of the existence of being One. In fleshly union, we are given a taste of Unity.

In other words, man and woman were not made to honor separate genders and an image of what marriage is suppose to be. Separate genders and marriage are given to us to awaken us to our true self. Like the Sabbath, they are gifts to aid us in becoming sons of God.

Ephesians 5:31
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.


Again, for this cause. Do you know this mystery of Christ of which Paul speaks? The mystery of the Bride and the Beloved, joined as One? Again, we have to know and understand what this cause is, of which Paul speaks, before we can begin to understand why God gifted us with temporary forms as men and women.

Abraham 5:18
18 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh.

Matthew 19:5
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Much different than the scriptures that describe God's justice and mercy being meted out the same and without regard to color, gender, bond, or free, etc.

Again, OC, if we do not know what the reason is, what the cause is, then we do not know the Spirit behind a Law, and are left with the letter, which as Paul says is death.

5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God,6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,

The ministry of death is written in stone. Do you see? By holding the instructions given by God as though they are written in stone IS DEATH. Are we following what is Death – a law written in stone, unyielding unevolving, or are we ministers of the New Covenant, realizing that God’s law is not written in stone, but is Alive, growing, changing evolving becoming something grander than rules written in stone.

And so the question is: are the morals that we follow written in stone, or are they alive? Do we allow God to continually give us higher morals to follow, as we grow and evolve in our potential to love? Or do we live in the past, working to keep our self and others bound to morals that humanity is outgrowing, even though our hearts are expanding and we have a greater capacity to love?

It is the anti Christ that works in this world trying to enforce laws written in stone!

Shalom!

[OtherCheek]

And so the question is: are the morals that we follow written in stone, or are they alive? Do we allow God to continually give us higher morals to follow, as we grow and evolve in our potential to love? Or do we live in the past, working to keep our self and others bound to morals that humanity is outgrowing, even though our hearts are expanding and we have a greater capacity to love?

It is the anti Christ that works in this world trying to enforce laws written in stone!

Shalom!

All I can say is that we see things very differently. The laws of God are guidelines to lead us toward our greatest potential and eternal happiness. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He does not vary. Practices and cultures and popular traditions and expediencies may change, but the laws which guide us to happiness are as eternal and unchanging as God Himself.

[Vivian]

All I can say is that we see things very differently. The laws of God are guidelines to lead us toward our greatest potential and eternal happiness. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He does not vary. Practices and cultures and popular traditions and expediencies may change, but the laws which guide us to happiness are as eternal and unchanging as God Himself.

The Spirit does not change, but how Spirit manifests in this world changes or evolves, grows, as humanity evolves and grows. Thus first we received the Old Covenant, then we received the New. God changed his covenant with us! Yes?

First God tells Abraham to kill his son, then he tells him not to. God's instructions to Abraham changed!

And for Mormons, there has been a big change. They believe that God changed what he revealed to humanity. They claim that in Joseph Smith, God revealed more.

Spirit does not change, but how that Spirit manifests in this world, or the letter, does, as humanity's capacity to love increases and is able to receive greater and greater understanding.

I tell you that what God is is so beyond simply what we see in this world! Beyond our imaginations, beyond anything our mind can conceive. Out here we have genders and marriage that do not exist in God, but have been given to us to reveal to us something of God.

You know, friend, it is difficult for any of us to comprehend the love and compassion of God - it is way beyond same sex marriages, it is way beyond male and female, it is way beyond anything of this world. The things of this world are only shadows of what is real.

In Colossians 2, for example, Paul speaks out against rules, or instructions - what has become known as legalism, summing it up saying: (they) are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Rules, laws are a shadow, according to Paul. And this is a great way of looking at it! Spirit, or Christ is the substance, but what is cast here in terms of laws and rules is just a shadow. And shadows shift and move! Just as laws and rules shift and move.

Don't worship and honor the shadow, my friend!

And take a look at what else Paul says about rules and laws:

20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

Why subject oneself to regulations about what to eat, what to handle, adding or whom to have sex with? These have the appearance of wisdom, but are of no value.

Shalom!

[Vivian]

And take a look at what else Paul says about rules and laws:

20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

Why subject oneself to regulations about what to eat, what to handle, adding or whom to have sex with? These have the appearance of wisdom, but are of no value.

Shalom!

I was contemplating this as I went to sleep. Rules and regulations are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh. Indulgence is also translated as satisfying the passions.

If we believe that homosexuality is an indulgence of the flesh (as stated elsewhere I do not believe it is the sex act itself that Paul spoke against, but lust for different or same sex, marriage being the solution for both), Paul is telling us that making rules or regulations against it are no value.

So we have a lot of people wanting and putting a lot of effort into something that Apostle Paul tells us is no value - making rules telling us what we can and can't do, such as making laws saying that we can't marry others of the same sex!

Paul is saying making a rule about what marriage is and isn't is of no value.

[Cerebrum123]

I was contemplating this as I went to sleep. Rules and regulations are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh. Indulgence is also translated as satisfying the passions.

If we believe that homosexuality is an indulgence of the flesh (as stated elsewhere I do not believe it is the sex act itself that Paul spoke against, but lust for different or same sex, marriage being the solution for both), Paul is telling us that making rules or regulations against it are no value.

So we have a lot of people wanting and putting a lot of effort into something that Apostle Paul tells us is no value - making rules telling us what we can and can't do, such as making laws saying that we can't marry others of the same sex!

Paul is saying making a rule about what marriage is and isn't is of no value.

Yeah, Paul said that rules are of no value, and then gave us some rules to follow, that makes a LOT of sense.

[Vivian]

Yeah, Paul said that rules are of no value, and then gave us some rules to follow, that makes a LOT of sense.

Perhaps making sense of what appears to be contradictions in scripture will open us up to the Spirit behind the letter?

If I might say here, there is a difference between a teaching, a suggestion, guidance, and a rule or a regulation

For example, one might or suggest that one avoid pre-marital sex, but to make it a law or regulation, or forcing people to follow is of no value. Paul does preach morality, but also preaches against making morality a law or a regulation. And so, according to Paul, legislating what marriage is is of no value.

[Cerebrum123]

Perhaps making sense of what appears to be contradictions in scripture will open us up to the Spirit behind the letter?

If I might say here, there is a difference between a teaching, a suggestion, guidance, and a rule or a regulation

For example, one might or suggest that one avoid pre-marital sex, but to make it a law or regulation, or forcing people to follow is of no value. Paul does preach morality, but also preaches against making morality a law or a regulation. And so, according to Paul, legislating what marriage is is of no value.

Care to give a verse where Paul teaches against making moral laws? With your logic, we might as well not legislate against murder, because legislating morality is worthless.

[Vivian]

Care to give a verse where Paul teaches against making moral laws? With your logic, we might as well not legislate against murder, because legislating morality is worthless.

I did. See post # 143.

[Cerebrum123]

I did. See post # 143.

That's talking about human RELIGIOUS RITUALS, and not laws or morals. Show me where he says not to make laws that are based in morality.

[Vivian]

Not rituals, but ordinances, rules, laws, dogma. He clearly says these are of no value. dogmatizō

Now perhaps you are agreeing that they are of no value within the church - rules and dogma created by the church and enforced on the members of the church. This is what Paul clearly is stating.

But your feel that it is ok to establish rules and dogma through the government and allow the government to enforce dogma on its citizens - both church members and not? The church doing so is of no value, but the government doing so is of value?