Marriage is:

[OtherCheek]

This discussion reminds me of Acts 15 when the Apostles argued among themselves regarding the preservation of morality for future generations.

The lesson learned is that man's ideas of morality are something that is hard fixed in stone - eg the traditions of men, and God's ideas of morality are something that is evolving as man's heart softens, as he learns to functioning increasingly according to love.

I believe God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, especially when it comes to right and wrong and morality and His character. It is man who evolves and changes. And God is patient in calling us to repentance, but there comes a time when a people becomes fully ripe, they then lose His blessings and protection and suffer severe consequences by incurring His wrath.

[Vivian]

I believe God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, especially when it comes to right and wrong and morality and His character. It is man who evolves and changes. And God is patient in calling us to repentance, but there comes a time when a people becomes fully ripe, they then lose His blessings and protection and suffer severe consequences by incurring His wrath.

Do you not agree, OC, that it is obvious from scripture that what is right and wrong in the eyes of God changes?

At one time it was immoral to eat port, to touch a woman while she was menstruating, to touch a dead body - because these things brought potential harm to the community of Israel. But as man evolved, so did the rules given by God. Even Jesus recognized this saying the laws of Moses were given because men's hearts were hard. But as men's hearts evolved into a greater capacity of love, the 'laws of Moses' likewise evolved.

The only way to make sense of all this is to say that the moral instructions given to man by God change.

Take Acts 15. The Apostles implemented this change after much debate, eliminating the necessity for the Gentiles to obey all moral laws of Israel. Reducing them to three.

And what is the foundation of all the laws of morality? That we love God with all our heart, mind and soul, and that we love others as our self. It is all about love, my friend. It is not about whom we have sex with, or whom we marry, but whether or not our actions are loving.

See and Hear! Homosexuality was immoral only because it was done without love, without consideration and care for our fellow man, and not because there is something wrong with the sexual act between two men. If Jesus were here today this is the conversation regarding this issue that would ensue. And how do we know? Because this is the conversation occurring today between the Risen Messiah and true apostles and disciples.

The Moralitors* said to Jesus, “Why then did Paul say that homosexuals would not find eternal life?"

He said to them, “Paul, because of the hardness of your hearts, limited marriage and sexual activity to a man and a woman, but from the beginning it was not so. You say such things today because you do not understand the Love of God."

*Moralitors are those who look to the traditions of men for morality instead of the Living Spirit of God.

[pancreasman]

I believe God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, especially when it comes to right and wrong and morality and His character. It is man who evolves and changes. And God is patient in calling us to repentance, but there comes a time when a people becomes fully ripe, they then lose His blessings and protection and suffer severe consequences by incurring His wrath.

Right. So you don't believe in the Mormon doctrine of abrogation.

[Cerebrum123]

Right. So you don't believe in the Mormon doctrine of abrogation.

Mormons use it, but it was started by Mohammed.

[pancreasman]

Mormons use it, but it was started by Mohammed.

I'm sure Jewish people would think Christians started it.

[Vivian]

Right. So you don't believe in the Mormon doctrine of abrogation.

It is indeed obviously ignorant to say that the revelation of God given to men does not evolve or change. Just as it is equally obviously ignorant to say that his instructions or commandments likewise do not change. As scripture tells us, it is God's plan to write his law upon our hearts so there will be no standard of morality existing externally to us. A heart that loves fully will be our guide.

But as long as men do not love fully, as long as mens' hearts are hard, there needs to be external instructions or morality given to maintain order and to sustain creation until that time when men can govern themselves.

As we note from one who is governed by his pure heart:

All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify. Let no one seek his own, but each one the other’s well-being.

See and Hear! The purpose of the law is to guide us in seeking each other's well being. Homosexuality was a sin during Paul's times because those practicing it most often sought to bring harm to others, horrendous harm. Homosexuality today has changed drastically just in the last few decades, where those living as gays often seek the well-being of others more so than those living as heterosexuals.

It is our heart, our intent, to love others, or to please ourselves at the detriment of others that determines what is a sin and what is not. Having sex with one of the same gender is not a sin. What is a sin is doing to bring harm to others, whether we are gay or straight.

This is what scripture obviously states! It is the traditions of men that yoke men and women with rules never intended by scripture.

Shalom!

[Cerebrum123]

It is indeed obviously ignorant to say that the revelation of God given to men does not evolve or change. Just as it is equally obviously ignorant to say that his instructions or commandments likewise do not change. As scripture tells us, it is God's plan to write his law upon our hearts so there will be no standard of morality existing externally to us. A heart that loves fully will be our guide.

But as long as men do not love fully, as long as mens' hearts are hard, there needs to be external instructions or morality given to maintain order and to sustain creation until that time when men can govern themselves.

As we note from one who is governed by his pure heart:

All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify. Let no one seek his own, but each one the other’s well-being.

See and Hear! The purpose of the law is to guide us in seeking each other's well being. Homosexuality was a sin during Paul's times because those practicing it most often sought to bring harm to others, horrendous harm. Homosexuality today has changed drastically just in the last few decades, where those living as gays often seek the well-being of others more so than those living as heterosexuals.

It is our heart, our intent, to love others, or to please ourselves at the detriment of others that determines what is a sin and what is not. Having sex with one of the same gender is not a sin. What is a sin is doing to bring harm to others, whether we are gay or straight.

This is what scripture obviously states! It is the traditions of men that yoke men and women with rules never intended by scripture.

Shalom!

Homosexual acts are a sin and thoroughly condemned in both the OT and NT. Anyone who can't see that is blind.

[pancreasman]

Homosexual acts are a sin and thoroughly condemned in both the OT and NT. Anyone who can't see that is blind.

As usual, put with grace and charm with not a hint of judgmentalism.

[Vivian]

Homosexual acts are a sin and thoroughly condemned in both the OT and NT. Anyone who can't see that is blind.

So is eating meat sacrificed to idols or anything that is killed by strangling. See Acts 15. Just the fact that in Acts 15 the apostles saw that imposing the laws of the Old Testament would be an unreasonable yoke placed upon the Gentiles reveals that things change. Things changed from God's 'unchanging commandments' written 3500 years ago to 'unchanging commandments' written 2000 years ago.

Many of you are using commandments of the past to put unreasonable yokes upon men by trying to enforce the 'changed unchanging commandments' of 2000 years ago. Arguing just as some did in Acts 15! God does not change! God's word does not change! The conclusion in Acts 15 - God's commandments do change!

Like Peter, you are calling things unclean based on archaic commandments which no longer apply. See Acts 10. Peter was stubborn too, holding to a morality that originated with Moses. But things change! Peter had to be given a vision to see this though.

I pray that each of you receive a word of God, a vision, to show that you are holding to the traditions of men as the Living Word of God.

Shalom!

[Cerebrum123]

So is eating meat sacrificed to idols or anything that is killed by strangling. See Acts 15. Just the fact that in Acts 15 the apostles saw that imposing the laws of the Old Testament would be an unreasonable yoke placed upon the Gentiles reveals that things change. Things changed from God's 'unchanging commandments' written 3500 years ago to 'unchanging commandments' written 2000 years ago.

Many of you are using commandments of the past to put unreasonable yokes upon men by trying to enforce the 'changed unchanging commandments' of 2000 years ago. Arguing just as some did in Acts 15! God does not change! God's word does not change! The conclusion in Acts 15 - God's commandments do change!

Like Peter, you are calling things unclean based on archaic commandments which no longer apply. See Acts 10. Peter was stubborn too, holding to a morality that originated with Moses. But things change! Peter had to be given a vision to see this though.

I pray that each of you receive a word of God, a vision, to show that you are holding to the traditions of men as the Living Word of God.

Shalom!

You do know that the OT laws being talked about were involved with ritual purity, and not the same as something like 'Thou shalt not murder", and the homosexual acts are in the category of the latter, right? I think you should learn a little about the OT covenant, and how it applies to Christians.http://www.youtube.com/user/tektontv...Testament+Law+
Your big problem is that you are mistaking God's commandments, and HIS standard of morality for the "traditions of men". The Pharisees were in trouble because they WEREN'T following OT law, and making things up like that a person didn't have to take care of their parents(breaking the commandment to "Honor thy father and mother") if they would spend the money instead by giving it to the priests. This is what is meant by the "traditions of men", and not your example. Besides, there is nothing in the NT that is a "tradition of men", but all of it is revealed by God, and this INCLUDES the prohibition on homosexual activity. Also you have 0 evidence that homosexuals back then were only in it to hurt others, that's just something you made up to suit your own eisegesis.

[Vivian]

You do know that the OT laws being talked about were involved with ritual purity, and not the same as something like 'Thou shalt not murder", and the homosexual acts are in the category of the latter, right? I think you should learn a little about the OT covenant, and how it applies to Christians.http://www.youtube.com/user/tektontv...Testament+Law+
Your big problem is that you are mistaking God's commandments, and HIS standard of morality for the "traditions of men". The Pharisees were in trouble because they WEREN'T following OT law, and making things up like that a person didn't have to take care of their parents(breaking the commandment to "Honor thy father and mother") if they would spend the money instead by giving it to the priests. This is what is meant by the "traditions of men", and not your example. Besides, there is nothing in the NT that is a "tradition of men", but all of it is revealed by God, and this INCLUDES the prohibition on homosexual activity. Also you have 0 evidence that homosexuals back then were only in it to hurt others, that's just something you made up to suit your own eisegesis.

Who decided these differentiating categories? I do not think the categories come from God, but from the traditions of men.

And what were the Pharisees missing? Love, wouldn't you say? So without love, with an impure heart, their interpretations were off, or their applications of the law were waaaayyyy off. They just did not get the reason behind the law in the first place - to seek each other's well being. They thought the idea was to obey what God commanded and so focused on interpreting the law and how to obey it instead of just loving, just taking care of each other.

The same thing is happening now. The commandments against homosexuality are being interpreted as though the idea is to obey what God commanded. And so there are debates and discussions and arguments about what God commanded and how we can obey that, instead of simply taking care of one another. Instead of simply loving.

There is nothing contrary to the Law of Love - the essence and Spirit behind the commandments, in homosexuality itself. Like with anything, it is not the practice itself, not the sex act itself, but whether or not it is done with love, with concern and care for one another.

Listen and Hear! Those who cannot love, who do not how to behave lovingly, caring for one another, are given a law with instructions on how to love.

The only Morality in God is to love one another, to take care of, be concerned for the well being of, one another. Any other morality is merely the traditions of men.

As Paul said:

13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

There is no law against love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control! There is NO LAW. If one who is sexually attracted to someone of the same gender, in this attraction and in following through with this attraction does so with love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control, they have broken no law.

Why do you seek with your traditions of men to take away the liberty given to us, to all of us, in Christ?

Shalom!

[Nathan Poe]

Don't assume that everyone is a cynical as you when it comes to teaching morals for the next generation, and preserving words to teach them by.

Is it "cynical" to neither expect nor demand that the Government be the morals police?

I mean, if you want that, fine -- I'll just run for office, and we'll see what you think of my morals being enforced.

[Nathan Poe]

Homosexual acts are a sin and thoroughly condemned in both the OT and NT. Anyone who can't see that is blind.

So what?

[Cerebrum123]

So what?

That was a response to Vivian who is claiming to be following God, and since He thoroughly condemns such acts, then she is simply following her own judgement.

Who decided these differentiating categories? I do not think the categories come from God, but from the traditions of men.

And what were the Pharisees missing? Love, wouldn't you say? So without love, with an impure heart, their interpretations were off, or their applications of the law were waaaayyyy off. They just did not get the reason behind the law in the first place - to seek each other's well being. They thought the idea was to obey what God commanded and so focused on interpreting the law and how to obey it instead of just loving, just taking care of each other.

The same thing is happening now. The commandments against homosexuality are being interpreted as though the idea is to obey what God commanded. And so there are debates and discussions and arguments about what God commanded and how we can obey that, instead of simply taking care of one another. Instead of simply loving.

There is nothing contrary to the Law of Love - the essence and Spirit behind the commandments, in homosexuality itself. Like with anything, it is not the practice itself, not the sex act itself, but whether or not it is done with love, with concern and care for one another.

Listen and Hear! Those who cannot love, who do not how to behave lovingly, caring for one another, are given a law with instructions on how to love.

The only Morality in God is to love one another, to take care of, be concerned for the well being of, one another. Any other morality is merely the traditions of men.

As Paul said:

13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

There is no law against love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control! There is NO LAW. If one who is sexually attracted to someone of the same gender, in this attraction and in following through with this attraction does so with love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control, they have broken no law.

Why do you seek with your traditions of men to take away the liberty given to us, to all of us, in Christ?

Shalom!

Jesus made a distinction.

7 The Pharisees and some of the teachers of the law who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus 2 and saw some of his disciples eating food with hands that were defiled, that is, unwashed. 3 (The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing, holding to the tradition of the elders. 4 When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups, pitchers and kettles.[a])

5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?”

6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:

“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’[b]
8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”

9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[c] your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’[d] and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’[e] 11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

See He's talking about doing what God COMMANDED, and in doing so OBEYING God. This is something you have obviously missed. He also talked about FULFILLING the law, and not "abolishing" it.

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
You see Jesus considered the OT to be the "law", and that it needed to be "fulfilled".
Jesus called us to be disciples, and that means OBEYING what God has revealed.

You have taken verses in the Bible out of context to suit your own desires.This next verse describes you in a nutshell.

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

[Vivian]

Hello Friend,

I know that what I say may seem odd to you, for we are programmed to look and see scripture according to the traditions of men. There was much pain and suffering in my life as I refused to let go of these ideas of men, as God pulled me away from such ideas. And since that time, I have come to discover that there are small gatherings in this world of true disciples and apostles of God who likewise have been pulled, have been called, out of these misunderstandings of men.

I offer to you what God taught me, and them as well. Yes, it hurts to let go of these old ways, but believe me, my friend, they were created by men and not by God!

When I look at your reply below, you have validated what I am offering you, though you do not see it...let me show you.

That was a response to Vivian who is claiming to be following God, and since He thoroughly condemns such acts, then she is simply following her own judgement.


Jesus made a distinction.

7 The Pharisees and some of the teachers of the law who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus 2 and saw some of his disciples eating food with hands that were defiled, that is, unwashed. 3 (The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing, holding to the tradition of the elders. 4 When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups, pitchers and kettles.[a])

5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?”

6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:

“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’
8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”

Do you not see? Their hearts were far from God, they on the surface did as they thought God wanted them to do - they obeyed God, but they did not. For the purpose of the commandments is not merely in doing this or that, but to give us a new heart. If we truly did as God commanded, we would be changed from the inside out, our hearts would be close to God, and we would not need to be told what to do.

Read, my friend, Jeremiah 7 and Isaiah 1 where the prophets of God condemned the obedience of the children of Israel. Why was their obedience to the commandments of God condemned? Because they were not getting it. Commandments are not about doing this and not doing that, they are about purifying our hearts. It does not matter if it appears that we are obeying God's commandments, that is not the point. The point is are we loving one another?

God's commandments are tools to teach us how to love, and these tools change as we grow and become increasingly able to love.

9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[c] your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’[d] and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’[e] 11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

See He's talking about doing what God COMMANDED, and in doing so OBEYING God. This is something you have obviously missed. He also talked about FULFILLING the law, and not "abolishing" it.

Yes, the traditions of men are what tell us that we must do this and do that - obey this rule and that rule, and you will be pleasing God. This is obeying the commandments of God according to the traditions of men. This, my friend, is the teaching and practice that the prophets and Jesus and Paul attacked. Obeying God is not following this rule or that rule, it is loving others as our self. The rules are guidances given in a particular time and space, showing us in these places and times that this is what loving others looks likes. The rules themselves are not absolute, for situations change, we change. The absolute is love. And how love is manifested though changes according to our evolving and our increasing ability to love.

These traditions of men which categorize the rules are false. Because all the rules are under one category - loving God and loving others. And how we express that love changes, from culture to culture, from situation to situation.

In these old cultures it was unloving to eat food that might make us ill. It was unloving to serve food that might make others ill. Hence guidance on how to love with our food.

In these old cultures it was unloving to touch things that carried diseases, making ourselves ill and bringing these diseases to others. Hence guidance on how to love others by what we avoid touching.

In these old cultures it was unloving to not control our sexual urges. It was unloving to have sex with a woman that was not your wife, giving risk that she might become pregnant and then we would have a woman and a child without anyone to care for them. Hence the guidances on not having sex except in marriage.

In these old cultures it was unloving to not control our sexual urges. It was unloving to live in lust over a woman, hence the guidance to get married, as it was unloving to live in lust over a man, hence the guidance against homosexuality. And lust, like greed, and any other passion and desire for things of this world, separated us from God, and so those consumed by lust, for men or for woman, would not be able to find eternal life. Why? because their desire was for things of the earth, and this is what they would get. Remember the teaching of Jesus on this?

This is Jesus' teaching on sex and homosexuality:

24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

When is sexual activity immoral? Jesus tells us! When we lust. When we are consumed by passion for the things of this world - whether it be for same or different gender sex. It is the lust, the passion for this world and not for God that separates us from God. Simply because our desire then is not for God. God gives us what we want! God grants us the desires of our heart, and so if we lust for sex, this is what we get. And if our desire is not for God, we lose our soul, we lose eternal life.

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
You see Jesus considered the OT to be the "law", and that it needed to be "fulfilled".
Jesus called us to be disciples, and that means OBEYING what God has revealed.

You have taken verses in the Bible out of context to suit your own desires.This next verse describes you in a nutshell.

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

And what does Paul say the fulfillment of the Law is? What did Paul teach us that Jesus did to fulfill the Law?

Galatians 6
2 Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.


Galatians 5
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!

And from Apostle James:

James 2
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;

You have proven with the scripture what I am offering to you, my friend! The absolute in Morality is Love. All else is just the ways and means whereby we love.

Love is it. Loving others as our self. If we in our sexual attraction to someone of the same gender are loving others as our self, we have fulfilled the law!

Praise God for these opportunities to speak His Truth! Hallelu-Yah!

Shalom!