The things I have noticed about LDS, and Islam.

[Cerebrum123]

I have noticed several similarities between LDS, and Islam. The more I seem to learn, the more similarities I see. Here is my list.

1. Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith claimed to have been taught things by an angel.
2. Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith condoned polygamy.
3. Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith had very self serving "revelations"(Mohammed had many that I know of, including one where he was given permission to marry his adopted sons ex-wife, and Joseph Smith had a prophecy that God would "destroy" Emma, if she didn't go along with his polygamy.).
4. Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith forbid alcohol(Joseph Smith actually owned a bar, and drank it though, and Mohammed said that his version of heaven would have rivers of it).
5. Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith brought new "scripture" that heavily contradicted the Bible.
6. Both Islam and LDS have a concept that in Islam is called "abrogation" (meaning newer revelation can cancel out the former. In LDS this has been seen with polygamy).

I will update my list as I learn more.

[Cow Poke]

I'm sure this is all just an incredible coincidence.

[Hamster]

The muslims don't have a great choir though

[OtherCheek]

I have noticed several similarities between LDS, and Islam. The more I seem to learn, the more similarities I see. Here is my list.

1. Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith claimed to have been taught things by an angel.

Yep. And I see nothing wrong with that. Moses claimed to be taught by a burning bush. Well, not exactly, but I think there were angels visiting and teaching men and women in the Bible.

2. Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith condoned polygamy.

Nothing wrong with that either. Especially if it is directed by God.

3. Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith had very self serving "revelations"(Mohammed had many that I know of, including one where he was given permission to marry his adopted sons ex-wife, and Joseph Smith had a prophecy that God would "destroy" Emma, if she didn't go along with his polygamy.).

What makes you think that Joseph even desired to have more than Emma for a wife? Is it because you have first concluded that he was immoral, and therefore wanted to have them to satisfy sensual desires? Isn't it because you have leading conclusions and biases that influence your subsequent conclusions?

4. Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith forbid alcohol(Joseph Smith actually owned a bar, and drank it though, and Mohammed said that his version of heaven would have rivers of it).

Wrong. Where was alcohol ever "forbidden" by Joseph? And what was the setting in which Joseph reportedly shared a bottle with others?

5. Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith brought new "scripture" that heavily contradicted the Bible.

According to whom?
The New Testament is new "scripture" which heavily contradicts the Talmud by the same standard.

6. Both Islam and LDS have a concept that in Islam is called "abrogation" (meaning newer revelation can cancel out the former. In LDS this has been seen with polygamy).

That's a good thing. Things like "Eye for an eye" was canceled out the Bible.

I will update my list as I learn more.

I bet you could also find similarities between Hinduism and Christianity if you searched for them.

[moreta]

I'm at work, so I'm going into great detail an everything here, but I wanted to toss my thoughts on a few of these into the ring.

Yep. And I see nothing wrong with that. Moses claimed to be taught by a burning bush. Well, not exactly, but I think there were angels visiting and teaching men and women in the Bible.

Angels visiting, yes. Angels delivering a message, yes. But I don't recall angels teaching anyone. Do you have a reference?

Nothing wrong with that either. Especially if it is directed by God.

When was it directed by God. Not allowed or tolerated, but directed. Chapter and verse please, bearing in mind that I only accept the authority of the Bible as scripture.

What makes you think that Joseph even desired to have more than Emma for a wife?

Fanny Alger, Lucinda Morgan Harris, Louisa Beaman, Zina Huntington Jacobs,
Presendia Huntington Buell, Agnes Coolbrith, Sylvia Sessions Lyon, Mary Rollins Lightner,
Patty Bartlett Sessions, Marinda Johnson Hyde, Elizabeth Davis Durfee, Sarah Kingsley Cleveland, Delcena Johnson, Eliza R. Snow, Sarah Ann Whitney, Martha McBride Knight,
Ruth Vose Sayers, Flora Ann Woodworth, Emily Dow Partridge, Eliza Maria Partridge, Almera Johnson, Lucy Walker, Sarah Lawrence, Maria Lawrence, Helen Mar Kimball, Hanna Ells, Elvira Cowles Holmes, Rhoda Richards, Desdemona Fullmer, Olive Frost, Melissa Lott , Nancy Winchester, Fanny Young.
Is there any place other than public comments where Smith complained, protested, or otherwise indicated he had no desire to take on more wives? Seems as if he didn't bother to kick against the pricks.

Again, God did not command polygamy in the Bible, He tolerated it. He did command against a man marrying sisters, though...(names together in mathcing color are sisters except Sylvia Sessions Lyon and Patty Bartlett Sessions, who are mother and daughter, also prohibited by God Lev 18:17)

Lev 18:18
Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time. KJV

As long as your wife is alive, don’t cause trouble for her by taking one of her sisters as a second wife. CEV

Do not take your wife’s sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living. NIV

Is it because you have first concluded that he was immoral, and therefore wanted to have them to satisfy sensual desires?Isn't it because you have leading conclusions and biases that influence your subsequent conclusions?

Nope. T'was the other way around. I decided he was immoral after I learned just how many wives he had.

Wrong. Where was alcohol ever "forbidden" by Joseph? And what was the setting in which Joseph reportedly shared a bottle with others?

Perhaps not forbidden, but certainly advised against.

"Sometime after dinner we sent for some wine. It has been reported by some that this was taken as a sacrament. It was no such thing; our spirits were generally dull and heavy, and it was sent for to revive us. I think it was Captain Jones who went after it, but they would not suffer him to return. I believe we all drank of the wine, and gave some to one or two of the prison guards. We all of us felt unusually dull and languid, with a remarkable depression of spirits. In consonance with those feelings I sang a song, that had lately been introduced into Nauvoo, entitled, ‘A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief’, etc." History of the Church 7:101.

According to whom?
The New Testament is new "scripture" which heavily contradicts the Talmud by the same standard.

That's a good thing. Things like "Eye for an eye" was canceled out the Bible.


I bet you could also find similarities between Hinduism and Christianity if you searched for them.

Work is picking up, so this part I'll have to put on the back burner for now, except to say that "Things like 'eye for an eye'" haven't been cancelled. Jesus didn't come to abolish the Law and the Prophets, but to fulfill them.

[OtherCheek]

I'm at work, so I'm going into great detail an everything here, but I wanted to toss my thoughts on a few of these into the ring.

Angels visiting, yes. Angels delivering a message, yes. But I don't recall angels teaching anyone. Do you have a reference?

Delivering a message, but this is never to be confused with teaching? Whatever.
IMO, it is a good thing to believe that the heavens are open, and that God can send holy angels to earth not only to bear a message, but to teach.

When was it directed by God. Not allowed or tolerated, but directed. Chapter and verse please, bearing in mind that I only accept the authority of the Bible as scripture.

I'm not here to convince you. Bible precedence is not something that the LDS use to limit God.

Fanny Alger, Lucinda Morgan Harris, Louisa Beaman, Zina Huntington Jacobs,
Presendia Huntington Buell, Agnes Coolbrith, Sylvia Sessions Lyon, Mary Rollins Lightner,
Patty Bartlett Sessions, Marinda Johnson Hyde, Elizabeth Davis Durfee, Sarah Kingsley Cleveland, Delcena Johnson, Eliza R. Snow, Sarah Ann Whitney, Martha McBride Knight,
Ruth Vose Sayers, Flora Ann Woodworth, Emily Dow Partridge, Eliza Maria Partridge, Almera Johnson, Lucy Walker, Sarah Lawrence, Maria Lawrence, Helen Mar Kimball, Hanna Ells, Elvira Cowles Holmes, Rhoda Richards, Desdemona Fullmer, Olive Frost, Melissa Lott , Nancy Winchester, Fanny Young.
Is there any place other than public comments where Smith complained, protested, or otherwise indicated he had no desire to take on more wives? Seems as if he didn't bother to kick against the pricks.

If Joseph WAS commanded by God to institute the practice, then according to you, the right thing for him to do was to tell God "NO". All you have done here is present the names of those he was sealed to, and due to your unbelief, conclude that this must have been Joseph's own desire that instituted this. How many times does the Bible teach that the right thing to do is to tell God "No" when he commands something? Maybe Jonah was right after all when he told God "no".

Where is it written in the Bible that God "tolerated" Abraham's practice, but didn't dare reprimand him for it?

Again, God did not command polygamy in the Bible, He tolerated it. He did command against a man marrying sisters, though...(names together in mathcing color are sisters except Sylvia Sessions Lyon and Patty Bartlett Sessions, who are mother and daughter, also prohibited by God Lev 18:17)

Lev 18:18
Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time. KJV

As long as your wife is alive, don’t cause trouble for her by taking one of her sisters as a second wife. CEV

Do not take your wife’s sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living. NIV

Can you show where Joseph had sexual relations with these other women? Or is the mere implication good enough?

Nope. T'was the other way around. I decided he was immoral after I learned just how many wives he had.

Abraham was immoral, then? So if it's not a show stopper to have immoral prophets, then what's the big deal for you?

Perhaps not forbidden, but certainly advised against.

Thanks for the correction.

"Sometime after dinner we sent for some wine. It has been reported by some that this was taken as a sacrament. It was no such thing; our spirits were generally dull and heavy, and it was sent for to revive us. I think it was Captain Jones who went after it, but they would not suffer him to return. I believe we all drank of the wine, and gave some to one or two of the prison guards. We all of us felt unusually dull and languid, with a remarkable depression of spirits. In consonance with those feelings I sang a song, that had lately been introduced into Nauvoo, entitled, ‘A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief’, etc." History of the Church 7:101.

Thanks. So, Joseph drank before his murder, but the impression left by the OP is that Joseph was a frequent drinker because he owned hotel that served alcoholic beverages to guests.

[Hamster]

Abraham was immoral, then? So if it's not a show stopper to have immoral prophets, then what's the big deal for you?

Abraham married his sister. That cool with you?

[Cow Poke]

Perhaps not forbidden, but certainly advised against.

"Sometime after dinner we sent for some wine. It has been reported by some that this was taken as a sacrament. It was no such thing; our spirits were generally dull and heavy, and it was sent for to revive us. I think it was Captain Jones who went after it, but they would not suffer him to return. I believe we all drank of the wine, and gave some to one or two of the prison guards. We all of us felt unusually dull and languid, with a remarkable depression of spirits. In consonance with those feelings I sang a song, that had lately been introduced into Nauvoo, entitled, ‘A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief’, etc." History of the Church 7:101.

Good points, Moreta.

This, to me, is one of the weakest and least honorable "defenses" of Smith .... he TAUGHT against drinking alcohol, but, according to OC, it was not a "commandment"..... so, at the VERY LEAST, Smith is a freakin' hypocrite. If I taught my kids that smoking was bad for them, then they saw me smoking, I hardly think they'd be cool with "well, I only suggested it was bad, I never told you NOT to".

And for somebody who supposedly was a "martyr", this doom and gloom and singing "Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief" doesn't sound a whole lot like FAITH. He went to Carthage SUPPOSEDLY as a "lamb to the slaughter", and died in a gunfight after smoking and drinking and mired in depression. He was, in SO MANY WAYS, such a hypocrite.

[OtherCheek]

Good points, Moreta.

This, to me, is one of the weakest and least honorable "defenses" of Smith .... he TAUGHT against drinking alcohol, but, according to OC, it was not a "commandment"..... so, at the VERY LEAST, Smith is a freakin' hypocrite. If I taught my kids that smoking was bad for them, then they saw me smoking, I hardly think they'd be cool with "well, I only suggested it was bad, I never told you NOT to".

I look at it like teaching your kids that refined foods and sugar are bad for them. And should not be consumed. And then you have some ice cream and cake from a cake mix before you die. Then your kids can condemn you for being a hypocrite.

As for this "doom and gloom" thing:
Matthew 26:37 "And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy."

[Cow Poke]

Delivering a message, but this is never to be confused with teaching? Whatever.

Yeah, the postman stops by at least once a week to teach us about logistics. (bracing for some kind of smar-alek remark about angels being demoted to letter carriers )

IMO, it is a good thing to believe that the heavens are open, and that God can send holy angels to earth not only to bear a message, but to teach.

Because you warp Scripture to fit your theology, rather than let the Bible guide your beliefs.

I'm not here to convince you. Bible precedence is not something that the LDS use to limit God.

Neither did Jim Jones, David Koresh ... and, hey, they had sex with their followers, TOO!

If Joseph WAS commanded by God to institute the practice

He wasn't.

, then according to you, the right thing for him to do was to tell God "NO".

She didn't say it was the "right" thing, but we see a pattern of men of God, who, when told by God to do something, often show resistance.
Did Moses immediately comply with God's direction to make him a spokesperson? That's WHY the burning bush, OC. It wasn't to TEACH, it was to convince.
Did Jonah IMMEDIATELY comply with God's direction to go to Ninevah....
I could give more examples, but it wouldn't surprise me if you just said, "well, Smith was more obedient!"

All you have done here is present the names of those he was sealed to, and due to your unbelief, conclude that this must have been Joseph's own desire that instituted this.

You only look at your Church's sanitized version, OC --- numerous accounts, diaries, affidavits and testimonies at the time, including from some of his "wives", show a much less noble intent.

Where is it written in the Bible that God "tolerated" Abraham's practice, but didn't dare reprimand him for it?

Where does he say God COMMANDED it? Why was it not practiced more widely, if it was COMMANDED by God? You're pretty selective with this "commanded" thing... Smith "taught" that alcohol was bad, but didn't "command" it.....

Can you show where Joseph had sexual relations with these other women? Or is the mere implication good enough?

Well, gee, OC --- you start at least ONE thread suggesting that the REASON polygamy was commanded by God was because of the shortage of men, and the need to "raise up seed" --- Was smith a FAILURE at this?

Abraham was immoral, then? So if it's not a show stopper to have immoral prophets, then what's the big deal for you?

Ah, THAT canard again! That is SO INCREDIBLY CHILDISH, OC --- Look at David, who had people murdered and had an affair with Bathsheba... and God used him mightily... it doesn't mean God used him BECAUSE David messed up. But... wait, that's right... you guys have David in your Spirit Prison.

Thanks. So, Joseph drank before his murder

Yes, "murder" is much more appropriate than "martyrdom" And, AGAIN, NONE of us approves of him being murdered in prison.

but the impression left by the OP is that Joseph was a frequent drinker because he owned hotel that served alcoholic beverages to guests.

Don't forget the part where his WIFE had to shame him out of this, and remove the BAR from his hotel. If he had only listened to her about the polygamy scheme, instead of inventing another "prophecy" threatening her destruction.

Here, let me take poetic license with one of you other quotes...

IMO, it is a good thing to believe that the heavens are open, and that God can send prophecies to earth not only to bear a message, but to threaten the destruction of otherwise faithful followers simply because they resist a drastic change in the MARRIAGE COVENANT.

[Cow Poke]

I look at it like teaching your kids that refined foods and sugar are bad for them.

Of course you do, because there are "Refined Foods and Sugar Anonymous" clubs all over the country complete with 12 Step Programs because lives are ruined by men and women ruining their lives with RFAS. Would you teach that RFAS should NEVER be consumed, OC? OR that they should be consumed in moderation.

And should not be consumed. And then you have some ice cream and cake from a cake mix before you die.

What if you had an Ice Cream and Cake shop in the hotel you OWNED?

Then your kids can condemn you for being a hypocrite.

This is such an incredibly weak argument, OC ... think really hard about this one, and PLEASE don't try this again.

As for this "doom and gloom" thing:
Matthew 26:37 "And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy."

Yes, but from the Cross, He uttered things like "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do"... would you like to compare ALL the aspects of Smith and Christ in their final moments, OC? We can start a thread on this!

[Cerebrum123]

Update.

Both Mohammed and Smith placed themselves ABOVE all other believers, and put themselves closer to God/Allah(Mohammed says that he will help judge people for Allah on Judgement day, and Smith has the "keys" to the "highest heaven").
Both Mohammed and Smith went after OTHER men's wives(Mohammed married his adopted son's ex-wife, after seeing her naked, and hinted at his adopted son to divorce her, he then got a "revelation" that allowed him to do this, AND a "revelation" that forbade adoption. Smith proposed to the wives of some of his followers).
Both Islam and LDS have a part of doctrine that wives stay married to their husbands after death.(despite what the Bible says about this).
Both Islam and LDS have polytheism(the Satanic Verses of Mohammed, and he has Allah swear on something other than himself, and supposedly anyone who swear by anything other than Allah is a polytheist, therefore Allah is a polytheist. Do I need to explain this one for LDS?).
Both Islam and LDS have some rather absurd myths(Quakers on the Moon for LDS, and for Islam they have a giant camel come out of a rock, the sun set in a muddy spring, etc.).

[OtherCheek]

This is such an incredibly weak argument, OC ... think really hard about this one, and PLEASE don't try this again.

I just thought about it.

It's like you as a parent teach your kids that it's better to avoid cola drinks as the sugar and caffeine are habit forming, and that leads to health and problems. But you sell chocolate and cola drinks at a store you own. And then just before dying you have a red bull drink, but your kids still love you, but others can call you a hypocrite for what you just did.

Yes, but from the Cross, He uttered things like "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do"... would you like to compare ALL the aspects of Smith and Christ in their final moments, OC? We can start a thread on this!

Jesus' mission to suffer and die was for a completely different purpose than Joseph's. Circumstances were different too. If Joseph had been led along in a death march procession, and then procedurally hung by a rope or nailed to a cross, the results may have been different then they were in the circumstance of being charged upon and having friends nearby whose lives were also being threatened, and watching a brother being shot before your eyes and the same fate in store for all of the others in the jail.

[OtherCheek]

Update.

Both Mohammed and Smith placed themselves ABOVE all other believers, and put themselves closer to God/Allah(Mohammed says that he will help judge people for Allah on Judgement day, and Smith has the "keys" to the "highest heaven").

I don't have a problem with that. That's kinda a parallel to what Jesus said about himself. Huh. But Joseph never claimed to be the Son of God, so that's different.

Both Mohammed and Smith went after OTHER men's wives(Mohammed married his adopted son's ex-wife, after seeing her naked, and hinted at his adopted son to divorce her, he then got a "revelation" that allowed him to do this, AND a "revelation" that forbade adoption. Smith proposed to the wives of some of his followers).

This was a test of loyalty, and after determining their loyalty, Joseph revealed that he was only testing their loyalty. Polygamy served as an Abramic-Isaac type of test for these early church leaders who obeyed.

Furthermore, Joseph Smith would not permit other members’ sexual misconduct. For example, he refused to countenance John C. Bennett’s serial infidelities.306 If Joseph was looking for easy access to sex, Bennett–mayor of Nauvoo, First Councilor in the First Presidency, and military leader–would have been the perfect confederate. Yet, Joseph publicly denounced Bennett’s actions, and severed him from the First Presidency and the Church. Bennett became a vocal opponent and critic, and all this could have been avoided if Joseph was willing to have him as a “partner in crime.” The critic cannot argue that Joseph felt that only he was entitled to polygamous relationships, since he went to great efforts to teach the doctrine to Hyrum and the Twelve, who embraced it with much less zeal than Bennett would have. If this is all about sex, why did Joseph humiliate and alienate Bennett, who he should have known he could trust to support him and help hide polygamy from critics, while risking the support of the Twelve by insisting they participate?

http://www.fairlds.org/authors/smith...ication#head44

Both Islam and LDS have a part of doctrine that wives stay married to their husbands after death.(despite what the Bible says about this).

Yep. That would be a similarity. Dissimilar to the Christian belief that singlehood is the order of heaven.

Both Islam and LDS have polytheism(the Satanic Verses of Mohammed, and he has Allah swear on something other than himself, and supposedly anyone who swear by anything other than Allah is a polytheist, therefore Allah is a polytheist. Do I need to explain this one for LDS?).

One God we worship. But the Godhead consists of 3 separate beings with separate minds, and bodies.

Both Islam and LDS have some rather absurd myths(Quakers on the Moon for LDS, and for Islam they have a giant camel come out of a rock, the sun set in a muddy spring, etc.).

And Christianity has not absurd myths in its past?

[Cerebrum123]

I don't have a problem with that. That's kinda a parallel to what Jesus said about himself. Huh. But Joseph never claimed to be the Son of God, so that's different.

Mohammed never claimed that either, and thought the very idea that Allah have a son as "blasphemous".

This was a test of loyalty, and after determining their loyalty, Joseph revealed that he was only testing their loyalty. Polygamy served as an Abramic-Isaac type of test for these early church leaders who obeyed.

Furthermore, Joseph Smith would not permit other members’ sexual misconduct. For example, he refused to countenance John C. Bennett’s serial infidelities.306 If Joseph was looking for easy access to sex, Bennett–mayor of Nauvoo, First Councilor in the First Presidency, and military leader–would have been the perfect confederate. Yet, Joseph publicly denounced Bennett’s actions, and severed him from the First Presidency and the Church. Bennett became a vocal opponent and critic, and all this could have been avoided if Joseph was willing to have him as a “partner in crime.” The critic cannot argue that Joseph felt that only he was entitled to polygamous relationships, since he went to great efforts to teach the doctrine to Hyrum and the Twelve, who embraced it with much less zeal than Bennett would have. If this is all about sex, why did Joseph humiliate and alienate Bennett, who he should have known he could trust to support him and help hide polygamy from critics, while risking the support of the Twelve by insisting they participate?

http://www.fairlds.org/authors/smith...ication#head44

Does that article have a quote from Joseph Smith claiming that it was a test? Unless it does, then I don't think that the article has any bearing on your claim. Mohammed claimed to be against "zina"(sexual misconduct), but engaged in it himself, this only heightens the hypocrisy, and makes Smith look WORSE.

Yep. That would be a similarity. Dissimilar to the Christian belief that singlehood is the order of heaven.

And that belief comes from the Bible, in fact from Jesus' OWN WORDS. Matthew 22:23 That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. 24 “Teacher,” they said, “Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and raise up offspring for him. 25 Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. 26 The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. 27 Finally, the woman died. 28 Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”

29 Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31 But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’[b]? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

33 When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at his teaching.

One God we worship. But the Godhead consists of 3 separate beings with separate minds, and bodies.

You worship one god, but you have an infinite amount of gods who had to worship the god that created them ad infinitum. This isn't much different than some Hindu's, they pick a god or goddess they want to worship, but believe that there are others as well.

And Christianity has not absurd myths in its past?

Can you mention any that were started by either Jesus or the Apostles?