Donatism and the Locus of Grace

[Rdr. Arsenios]

I doubt you have ever read the original 6h century source on the topic (via Sophronius, the Patriarch of Jerusalem), so I sourced a translation for you...
http://www.reu.org/public/saints/maryegyptherwords.htm

Thank-you, Apo - That is the one that we read each Lent - It is the one with which we are all familiar... I have read it many times...

Anyone with eyes that can see & ears that can hear will realise the moral of the tale. A self righteous priest (Zosimas) is humbled by a true penitent (unlike him she could even walk on water)...

I would prefer an opinion taken from the Church rather than your private interpretation of this hagiography as a morality tale...

You disagree with the Angel who responded to Zosimus' ponderings of dismay that perhaps he had reached the pinnacle of God's Life for man on earth because he had surpassed all the other monks in monastic virtue:

"Is there a monk on earth who can be of use to me
and show me a kind of asceticism that I have not accomplished?
Is there a man to be found in the desert who has surpassed me?"

Thus thought the elder, when suddenly an angel appeared to him and said:

"Zosimas, valiantly have you struggled,
as far as this is within the power of man,
valiantly have you gone through the ascetic course.

But there is no man who has attained perfection.

Before you lie unknown struggles greater than those you have already accomplished.
That you may know how many other ways lead to salvation,
leave your native land like the renowned patriarch Abraham
and go to the monastery by the River Jordan."

[This is from the site you so kindly provided...]

So yes there was much before him, and even the Abbot of the monastery told him the same,
and the Way of it,
and then he met Mary during the Lenten Podvig in the Desert...

But the Angel had told him that he had done well,
and had taken himself in struggles as far as it is humanly possible to go...
THAT, my Brother, is a LONG way...
And fulfills the commandment of Christ
"To love the Lord thy God with ALL thy strength..."

I am not so quick to criticize my betters as you seem to be, my Brother...
He had struggled valiantly to this point, as the Angel said,
and had a long way to go, and was seeking the way forward...

THAT is why the angel appeared to him.

You and I would do exceedingly well
were we to do as he has done...

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Such is the dignity of this sacrament that it is performed only as in the person of Christ.

This is absolutely correct... The Priest is the Icon of Christ...

Now whoever performs any act in another's stead, must do so by the power bestowed by such a one.

And this is also utterly correct - Christ commissioned His Apostles for this...

But as the power of receiving this sacrament is conceded by Christ to the baptized person,
so likewise the power of consecrating this sacrament on Christ's behalf is bestowed upon the priest at his ordination:
for thereby he is put upon a level with them to whom the Lord said (Luke 22:19):
"Do this for a commemoration of Me."

This is where the deterioration begins, because the power was given to the Apostles, and they established Churches and consecrated Bishops who ordain priests, and this was the case in Aquinas' time - The Pope of Rome carried the Apostolic power, and could consecrate Bishops to act in his behalf for the Church, and these in turn consecrated Priests to act in their stead... So that the Priest is not on a level with the Bishop and the Pope, even in the Roman Church in the West...

Therefore, it must be said that it belongs to priests to accomplish this sacrament.

And here the conclusion is false - Because it belongs to the Bishops, not the Priests, because the Priests act in the stead of the Bishops...

That was a VERY helpful site, btw... Thank-you...

I keep remembering St. Thomas' words at the end of his life after one visit from God:
"Everything I have written is straw..."
For that alone, in my book, he is a Saint...
eg For that encounter with God...

Arsenios

[apostoli]

Anyone with eyes that can see & ears that can hear will realise the moral of the tale. A self righteous priest (Zosimas) is humbled by a true penitent (unlike him she could even walk on water)...

I would prefer an opinion taken from the Church rather than your private interpretation of this hagiography as a morality tale...

So you should! But to listen to the Church you would need to listen to what Sophronius originally wrote and not fantasize...

"Zosimas used to relate how, as soon as he was taken from his mother's breast, he was handed over to the monastery where he went through his training as an ascetic till he reached the age of 53. After that, he began to be tormented with the thought that he was perfect in everything and needed no instruction from anyone..."

There are huge lessons to be learnt from the tale! Zosimas was a man of habit, having known no other life since leaving his mother's breast other than that as an ascetic, and his sole aim throughout his life was to excel in that pursuit (the apex of Phariseeism). In this respect he is not a man to be admired (but an example of the fruitility of the ascetic life through rote performance), but then he meets Mary of Egypt whom he supplicants...

"O mother, filled with the spirit, by your mode of life it is evident that you live with God and have died to the world. The Grace granted to you is apparent -- for you have called me by name and recognized that I am a priest, though you have never seen me before. Grace is recognized not by one's orders, but by gifts of the Spirit, so give me your blessing for God's sake, for I need your prayers."

[Rdr. Arsenios]

So you should! But to listen to the Church you would need to listen to what Sophronius originally wrote and not fantasize...

"Zosimas used to relate how, as soon as he was taken from his mother's breast, he was handed over to the monastery where he went through his training as an ascetic till he reached the age of 53. After that, he began to be tormented with the thought that he was perfect in everything and needed no instruction from anyone..."

There are huge lessons to be learnt from the tale! Zosimas was a man of habit, having known no other life since leaving his mother's breast other than that as an ascetic, and his sole aim throughout his life was to excel in that pursuit (the apex of Phariseeism). In this respect he is not a man to be admired (but an example of the fruitility of the ascetic life through rote performance), but then he meets Mary of Egypt whom he supplicants...

"O mother, filled with the spirit, by your mode of life it is evident that you live with God and have died to the world. The Grace granted to you is apparent -- for you have called me by name and recognized that I am a priest, though you have never seen me before. Grace is recognized not by one's orders, but by gifts of the Spirit, so give me your blessing for God's sake, for I need your prayers."

The fact that Zosimos was tormented by the demon of self-esteem is hardly to his condemnation - This demon attacks ALL monastics, and especially those of greatest attainment, and in his acquisition of the Faith, he was at the top end of all his brothers... But the torment is not the yielding to it, and for you to accuse him of vainglory is just wrong... He fought this demon by ASKING to be shown those better than him, and this REQUEST was given to him, and he obeyed... He went to that monastery, where the elder himself was better than he was, and instructed him, remember? He said that here we all stand before God alone and do not give account to each other, but learn from God directly... And it was this elder's rule that sent Zosimus into the desert to meet Mary... And Mary was the fulfillment of being instructed by God alone... In a certain sense, she was the teaching that the elder was instructing to Zosimus...

Remember his first instruction to even GO to that monastery? What he was told?

There is no teaching in any of this that he was a man of habit, as you called him - Ascetics, while habitual in their ascesis, are hardly creatures of habit... They are men and women of God!

Arsenios

[apostoli]

"But I (adds Sophronius) as soon as I heard it [this story], wrote it down. Perhaps someone else, better informed, has already written the life of the Saint, but as far as I could, I have recorded everything, putting truth above all else. May God Who works amazing miracles and generously bestows gifts on those who turn to Him with faith, reward those who seek light for themselves in this story, who hear, read and are zealous to write it, and may He grant them the lot of blessed Mary together with all who at different times have pleased God by their pious thoughts and labours."

"Abbot John, as St. Mary had previously told Abba Zosimas, found a number of things wrong in the monastery and got rid of them with God's help."
_________________
An after thought George,

for you to accuse him of vainglory is just wrong...

Pointedly, after he declared "Is there a monk on earth who can be of use to me and show me a kind of asceticism that I have not accomplished? Is there a man to be found in the desert who has surpassed me?, he is in fact rebuked by an angel! Told to get off his butt and discover reality! An interesting catch phrase of the angel's is "That you may know how many other ways lead to salvation" which intimates that because of his vainglory he had not achieved it as yet!

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Pointedly, after he declared "Is there a monk on earth who can be of use to me and show me a kind of asceticism that I have not accomplished? Is there a man to be found in the desert who has surpassed me?

A question is not a declaration, and no angel told him to get off his butt... He asked for the next step, beyond what he had already done, and he was sent to those who would show him the answer to his question...

He asked...
THEN...
He received...

And in the process he gave us the Life of an otherwise unknown holy woman...

Your gratitude to God for him is in order...

And all you can do is criticize/slander him...

Lord have mercy!

Arsenios

[apostoli]

A question is not a declaration, and no angel told him to get off his butt... He asked for the next step, beyond what he had already done, and he was sent to those who would show him the answer to his question...

He asked...
THEN...
He received...

And in the process he gave us the Life of an otherwise unknown holy woman...

Your gratitude to God for him is in order...

And all you can do is criticize/slander him...

Lord have mercy!

Arsenios

I really don't understand how you could consider a person's recognition of the failure of his life course as a slander. Personally, I think it admirable...

[Rdr. Arsenios]

I really don't understand how you could consider a person's recognition of the failure of his life course as a slander. Personally, I think it admirable...

He did not himself state that his life's course as a monastic was a failure - And indeed, he CONTINUED his monastic life's course... He had arrived at a point where the next step was not seen, and he asked for and received the continuation of his life's course at another monastery...

Arsenios

[apostoli]

He did not himself state that his life's course as a monastic was a failure - And indeed, he CONTINUED his monastic life's course... He had arrived at a point where the next step was not seen, and he asked for and received the continuation of his life's course at another monastery...

"Zosimas threw himself on the ground and asked for [Mary's] blessing...O mother, filled with he spirit...Grace is recognized not by one's orders, but by gifts of the Spirit, so give me your blessing for God's sake, for I need your prayers...

Why have you come, man of God, to me who am so sinful? Why do you wish to see a woman naked an devoid of every virtue? Though I know one thing -- the Grace of the Holy Spirit has brought you to render me a service in time...

By your prayers, mother, Christ has granted lasting peace to all. But fulfill the unworthy petition of an old man and pray for the whole world and for me who am a sinner, so that my wanderings in the desert may not be fruitless."

She answered:

"You who are a priest, Abba Zosimas, it is you who must pray for me and for all -- for this is your calling..."

[Rdr. Arsenios]

"Zosimas threw himself on the ground and asked for [Mary's] blessing...O mother, filled with he spirit...Grace is recognized not by one's orders, but by gifts of the Spirit, so give me your blessing for God's sake, for I need your prayers...

Why have you come, man of God, to me who am so sinful? Why do you wish to see a woman naked an devoid of every virtue? Though I know one thing -- the Grace of the Holy Spirit has brought you to render me a service in time...

By your prayers, mother, Christ has granted lasting peace to all. But fulfill the unworthy petition of an old man and pray for the whole world and for me who am a sinner, so that my wanderings in the desert may not be fruitless."

She answered:

"You who are a priest, Abba Zosimas, it is you who must pray for me and for all -- for this is your calling..."

Aaahh my Latin brother! It is clear to me now... Forgive me!

You are simply unfamiliar with what it is that humility looks like...

What you are seeing here is two of God's holy ones exercising humility in the presence of the other...

Now he correctly DID throw himself at her feet, for he recognized her holiness as greater than his, no question... But that does not make him UN-holy... Indeed, were he to FAIL to do so, then THAT would desecrate his soul and make him unholy...

But you, it would appear, do not know what humility among the saints looks like...

He had simply met God's answer to his prayer of who is higher than him?

Welcome to Orthodox hagiography 101!!!

Arsenios

[apostoli]

Aaahh my Latin brother!

Just as an aside: As far as I could determine neither Zosimas or Sophronius are in the list/s of Western Saints, though Mary of Egypt is!

It is clear to me now... Forgive me! You are simply unfamiliar with what it is that humility looks like...

There is a difference between being humble (Mary) and being humbled (Zosimas).

A couple of things you've missed. Zosimas only threw himself to the ground once Mary had revealed her clairvoyance. The only reason Mary did likewise was because "You are dignified by the order of priesthood and for many years you have been standing before the holy altar and offering the sacrifice of the Divine Mysteries". It is interesting that the text then says : "This flung Zosimas into even greater terror..."

George, consider, if she knew such things then she also knew his personal struggles/failures. No wonder he was struck with terror!

What you are seeing here is two of God's holy ones exercising humility in the presence of the other...

Now he correctly DID throw himself at her feet, for he recognized her holiness as greater than his, no question... But that does not make him UN-holy...

Didn't say it would! Though it wouldn't make him holy either. It is a pity the text doesn't support your assumption. He threw himself down in fear! Not reverence! On the other hand, Mary prostrated herself in reverence for his office...

Also, note Abbott John at the Monastery by the Jordan saw nothing special about Zosimas, other than he was a monk, and "On being admitted to the abbot's presence, Zosimas made the usual monastic prostration and prayer...After this, Zosimas bowed to the abbot, asked for his prayers and blessing, and stayed in the monastery...Zosimas was greatly edified and prepared for the struggle that lay before him'. Question George: What was the struggle that was about to confront Zosimas?

Indeed, were he to FAIL to do so, then THAT would desecrate his soul and make him unholy...

Zosimas wasn't certain what Mary was. After asking her to pray for him and the world, she chastised him for failing his priestly duties, she then obeys him and prays, and after a time levitates. "When he saw this, even greater terror seized him and he fell on the ground weeping and repeating may times, "Lord have mercy. And whilst lying prostrate on the ground he was tempted by a thought: Is it not a spirit, and perhaps her prayer is hypocrisy..."

Reality George, he didn't know who or what he was dealing with...his early intent (against the rules of the monastery's Lental practice) was to go "far into the desert with a secret hope of finding some father who might be living there and who might be able to satisfy his thirst and longing". What a surprise he got when he encountered Mary! Not what he had expected!

He had simply met God's answer to his prayer of who is higher than him?

Oh George! Best not read your own needs into what Sophronius wrote concerning Zosimas state of mind. The text explicity states "he began to be tormented with the thought that he was perfect in everything and needed no instruction from anyone, saying to himself mentally..."

There is no indication in the tale of him praying! The exact opposite! But we find that as a result of his self deception an angel appears to him and chastises him for his self-reliance: "Zosimas, valiantly have you struggled, as far as this is within the power of man" (this contrasts with Mary who evidently put her entire trust in God and did not depend on her self determination).

Welcome to Orthodox hagiographC 101!!!

Unfortunately, we do not have a hagiographic account of
Zosimas, merely an account of his encounter with Mary, and what transpired towards that meeting - well after all the tale is actually about Mary and not Zosimas.

Apparently, he lived in the mid 5th century, possibly he was literate (the text says "he never ceased to study the Divine Scriptures" - though this could have been via verbal rote). Imu, most North Africa aesetic monks of the time (and according to 19th century Protestant missionaries) were illiterate. Sophronius (7th century) relates "The monks kept this story without writing it down and passed it on by word of mouth to one another. But I (adds Sophronius) as soon as I heard it, wrote it down".

From the tale we can can glean that Zosimas entered his first monastery at infancy and knew no other life than what had been taught him: "Zosimas used to relate how, as soon as he was taken from his mother's breast, he was handed over to the monastery where he went through his training as an ascetic till he reached the age of 53". We learn he had become conceited by the reverence others paid him (and presumeably that concerned him), and so he lamented that he had no one to direct him. Then an angel appears, chastises him and sends him to a monastery that had a more severe way of life than he had previously experienced. The consequence: in accord with their Lental observance we went for a retreat in the desert, met Mary and his life was changed. Finally we learn: "Abbot John, as St. Mary had previously told Abba Zosimas, found a number of things wrong in the monastery and got rid of them with God's help".

Interestingly, Sophronius attributes little of revelance to us in the tale to Zosimas - apart from Zosimas' personal struggles in which we are led to believe he was victorious: "And Saint Zosimas died in the same monastery, almost attaining the age of a hundred, and passed to eternal life..."

It is worth noting Sophronius final words "May God Who works amazing miracles and generously bestows gifts on those who turn to Him with faith, reward those who seek light for themselves in this story, who hear, read and are zealous to write it, and may [God] grant them the lot of blessed Mary together with all who at different times have pleased God by their pious thoughts and labours".

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Just as an aside: As far as I could determine neither Zosimas or Sophronius are in the list/s of Western Saints, though Mary of Egypt is!

We do not have a hagiographic account of Zosimas

Yes, WE do...

Life of St. Zosima

Righteous Zosima of Palestine is commemorated as a saint on April 4.

Saint Zosimas was born in the second half of the fifth century, during the reign of Emperor Theodosius the Younger. He became a monk in a monastery in Palestine at a very young age, gaining a reputation as a great elder and ascetic. At the age of fifty-three, now a hieromonk, he moved to a very strict monastery located in the wilderness close to the Jordan River, where he spent the remainder of his life.

He is best known for his encounter with St. Mary of Egypt (commemorated on April 1). It was the custom of that monastery for all of the brethren to go out into the desert for the forty days of Great Lent, spending the time in fasting and prayer, and not returning until Palm Sunday. While wandering in the desert he met Saint Mary, who told him her life story and asked him to meet her the next year on Holy Thursday on the banks of the Jordan, in order to bring her Holy Communion. He did so, and the third year came to her again in the desert, but he found that she had died and he buried her. St Zosimas is reputed to have lived to be almost one hundred years of age.

All that we know of Zosimas' life comes from the Vita of St. Mary of Egypt, recorded by St. Sophronius, who was the Patriarch of Jerusalem from 634 to 638.

http://www.stmaryofegypt.org/zosima.html

So that we do live in a free country where there are no political consequences for slandering a Christian Saint recognized by the Church, but even so, that does not make it a really very good idea...

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

There is a difference between being humble (Mary) and being humbled (Zosimas).

Not understanding humility, you seem preoccupied with status...

A couple of things you've missed.
Zosimas only threw himself to the ground once Mary had revealed her clairvoyance.

Of COURSE he did, and you would do well to follow suit...

The only reason Mary did likewise was because
"You are dignified by the order of priesthood
and for many years you have been standing before the holy altar
and offering the sacrifice of the Divine Mysteries".

She knows God has sent him as an answer to her prayer that she receive holy Communion before she departs this life... And he knows that God has sent her as an answer to his prayer that he meet someone of more attainment than himself...

Some of us call this win-win...

Your attempt to denigrate one or the other utterly misses the mark...

It is interesting that the text then says :
"This flung Zosimas into even greater terror..."

He was not yet clairvoyant - Nor do we know if God ever gave him that gift... I seriously doubt that anything like that had ever happened to him... It is not a common event, although not uncommon in some Orthodox monasteries... The last one I heard of in the Latin confession was Padre Pio... So when encountering someone exercising this gift, on you, terror is a good idea, for there are demons who know such things as well as God... Even the disciples wondered if Christ walking on the water was a ghost...

George, consider, if she knew such things then she also knew his personal struggles/failures. No wonder he was struck with terror!

Well, this I will take as YOUR confession of how YOU would respond in terror, and what it was that YOU would be terrorized about at the hands of a clairvoyant naked woman in the desert... It simply means that you have issues in your soul which you are afraid of people knowing about... At his level of askesis and monastic attainment, those kinds of issues would be pretty well burned off by then for ol' Zosimos... This is a highly ascetic elder looking for MORE ascesis... His only enemy, of whom he would be terrorized, is a demonic force, and perhaps this would account for his terror - I would have to go back and re-read the story to get a better idea... But YOUR accounting of it is utterly personal to yourself and banal...

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Here is the icon of St. Zosima and St. Mary of Egypt:

Each has the hagiographic halo...

I really must say that you would do well to study their conversation, for it is a university education in how it is that holy people interact...

Arsenios

[apostoli]

Yes, WE do...

Life of St. Zosima

Righteous Zosima of Palestine is commemorated as a saint on April 4.

Saint Zosimas was born in the second half of the fifth century, during the reign of Emperor Theodosius the Younger. He became a monk in a monastery in Palestine at a very young age, gaining a reputation as a great elder and ascetic. At the age of fifty-three, now a hieromonk, he moved to a very strict monastery located in the wilderness close to the Jordan River, where he spent the remainder of his life.

He is best known for his encounter with St. Mary of Egypt (commemorated on April 1). It was the custom of that monastery for all of the brethren to go out into the desert for the forty days of Great Lent, spending the time in fasting and prayer, and not returning until Palm Sunday. While wandering in the desert he met Saint Mary, who told him her life story and asked him to meet her the next year on Holy Thursday on the banks of the Jordan, in order to bring her Holy Communion. He did so, and the third year came to her again in the desert, but he found that she had died and he buried her. St Zosimas is reputed to have lived to be almost one hundred years of age.

All that we know of Zosimas' life comes from the Vita of St. Mary of Egypt, recorded by St. Sophronius, who was the Patriarch of Jerusalem from 634 to 638.

http://www.stmaryofegypt.org/zosima.html

So that we do live in a free country where there are no political consequences for slandering a Christian Saint recognized by the Church, but even so, that does not make it a really very good idea...

Arsenios

Your article says nothing different to what I related at the end of my post. In fact it affirms "All that we know of Zosimas' life comes from the Vita of St. Mary of Egypt, recorded by St. Sophronius", thus we have no account of his life other than he was raised in a monestery from infancy and by the age of 53 he was prominant within his monastery. In short, compared to what we learn about Mary we know nothing about him.

Never once have I slandered Zosimas, I've simply followed Sophronius' account, even quoting verbatum, so it seems it is you who are intent on bearing false witness against a saint of the eastern church (aka St Sophronius).
____________

I really must say that you would do well to study their conversation, for it is a university education in how it is that holy people interact...

The mirror reflects back at you. It is becoming increasingly obvious with your fantacies that you have never actual sat down and consiously read (let alone studied) Sophronius account. If you had you'd know Zosimas did not prostrate himself in recognition of Mary's holiness but according to Sophronius (not me) in absolute terror, and as he lay there it occured to him she was an evil spirit ("Is it not a spirit, and perhaps her prayer is hypocrisy").

The tale has no semblance to "a university education in how it is that holy people interact". The tale is a university education on peoples approach to penance. As the angel said to Zosimas "Before you lie unknown struggles greater than those you have already accomplished. That you may know how many other ways lead to salvation...".
_____________

I would have to go back and re-read the story to get a better idea... But YOUR accounting of it is utterly personal to yourself and banal...

All I've attempted to do is follow Sophronius, and so I quoted his account and you should observe, with very little commentary...and that commentary was directed at your fictions that deviate from Sophronius' account. As you admit you need to re-read the story, it seems you have just been posting your own imaginings...

When you've studied the story, we might be able to discuss Zosimas and contribute to each others understanding. As I read over the story several times, I kept thinking of a comparison between Zosimas' & Nicodemus' quests...