Donatism and the Locus of Grace

[apostoli]

Your choice is not between the MECHANICS OF ROTE and the SINCERITY OF EMOTIONS... That is, technically, the fallacy of the false alternative, and is based on very false assumptions... I mean, Paul! JUDAS felt SO MUCH REGRET that he KILLED HIMSELF... Yet Peter entered into deep contrition and remained with the others and stuck it out despite his emotional state... The Fathers teach that he entered into deep repentance... But Judas merely felt a lot of remorse, gave back the money to the Jews, and killed himself...

How can you even make your MOUTH to say that REMORSE TRUMPS REPENTANCE??? That is a big old hairy lie that denies Christ's own words and the history of the Gospel in the restoration by repentance of Peter and the self-destruction by remorse of Judas.

Oh George! You do have a perverse view of the Christian life (and possibly life in general)! Currently, "Becker" is having a repeat season here on TV. Your verbals remind me of his cynicism (stoicism)...which, as with "Becker", brings me amusement due to the irony...

Emotion in God's eyes beats mechanics every time! Just think of God's rejection of the Judges, Levites, Pharisees & Sadducees - not to mention Moses' ordinances and the rejection of the entire nation of Israel! YHWH warned numerous times "I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings". (Hos 6:6 and numerous other scriptures I've already quoted to you).

In fact Moses makes the point that any sacrifice that had blemish was unacceptable to YHWH (cp Deut 15:21) - mechanics of rote being an obvious blemish. In fact! Jesus said of Hosea 6:6 "go and learn what this means" In the next verse/s he challenged those that questioned the lack of fasting by his disciples! (see Mt 9).

George, should you decide to attempt to read the Gospels, you might discern Judas was a complicated man. Various EOC authors have speculated about him from a political and religious viewpoint. To put things in perspective, A.Peter who hours before had declared his unceasing loyality to Jesus, publicly denied Jesus three times before sunrise (the cock crowing). And still, Jesus told him to "feed my sheep". There is no mention of repentence on A.Peter's account, but we do read of his acknowledgement of his failure (his regret)...

According to RCC & EOC tradition Judas stole from the communal treasury, though, imu, there is no indication in scripture that he actually did so (could be true but there is no evidence!).

Revisionists (various EOC sects) consider Judas a saint in the mould of Mary the theodotos, simply because, if he hadn't done, what he did, Jesus would not have been crucified, and we would not have the opportunity of salvation! In such a view, Judas is the ultimate in Christian conflict and repentence! (Sought of like: if you have known Christ, and then reject him, you will be driven to despair and potentially driven to suicide). Heh! It isn't my idea, merely the ideas that come out of EOC ascetic communities!

Similiar EOC sects (all ascetics) argue that Judas was the first Christian Martyr! We have already discussed the Agonisticis (whom Augustine termed the Circumcellions). Such had large followings in at least the first six centuries of the church (possibly longer) and from my readings of EOC authors still have a remnant (or are experiencing a modern resurgence).

Given in the early history of the EOC, Christian suicide (martyrdom via voluntary death) was considered the most honourable repentence, I would imagine you would sanctify Judas! But then there is the two sided propaganda...and honestly I can't date the shift in thought...as far as I can gather (repentence via voluntary death) still has currency in both the east & west (though in most modern countries attempted suicide is illegal - unlike the EOC early fathers we these days don't persecute the dead).

From one viewpoint: Judus made the ultimate contrition - a total trust in God's judgement! Heh! he'd been hanging around Jesus and had well heard of all the talk of Gehenna! Why would he rush there? An option is that he thought that through his absolute repentence (suicide) he would be forgiven and received into the bosom of Abraham. (Option 2: Judas was aclanestine Sadducee, but if so, then his suicide doesn't make sense).

Concerning A.Peter, there is a huge irony that Jesus did not choose his "beloved' (A.John), but the one that denied him three times to feed "my" lambs, tend "my" sheep, feed "my" sheep... (John Jn 21:15-17). No other disciple was given such a command!

My Brother, please understand - There is nothing you can say that is a threat to this Faith or my perception of it, or my possession of it... Just as you are trying to help me out of the mechanics of rote in which you think I am lost, so also am I trying to shock you out of this smarmy emotionality of regret which you think trumps repentance, which St. Mary of Egypt struggled in for so many years and triumphed over her sinful life...

Point of fact George. There is nothing in the tale of St Mary that says she triumphed over her temptations. I appreciate your concern for "smarmy emotionality of regret" but I can only assume that you have yet to "regret" your past life. Regret isn't emotional what-so-ever if you have experienced it! Read the account of St mary over and over again and try to garner an understanding - note that St Mary did not fast (though she lived off the land) and did not do rote prayers (though she did pray when temptation entered her).

As often happens we are possibly having a war of words. I rewatched one of the 60min videos, and the old abbot said to the interviewer "I am praying right now". In my perspective, he was telling the guy, he was living the prayer rather than reciting it...which is a viewpoint I appreciate...

My only dispute is with regimentation, what I term as rote actions, which ultimately, imo, become meaningless habit...or worse, become a source for mystic (occult) endevours...
practices...

_________________

I desire to reply in full to your posts, and I'm in a catch-up phase...my ex-wife has to go into hospital and again I'm called away...

[Rdr. Arsenios]

my ex-wife has to go into hospital and again I'm called away...

You will be doing much more for your soul tending your ex-wife than you will answering my posts in detail, my brother...

Do you really not believe Christ when He said Judas was a devil?
Are you really going to canonize Judas as a Christian Martyr-Saint?
Do you really think that there is no difference between martyrdom and suicide?

I mean, you sounded pretty good for awhile...
Now I am wondering if you are even a Christian...

You seem lost in your fear of mechanical rote...
And in love of your smarmy emotionality...
And you seem to know only these two possibilities...

Take good care of her, your ex-...
You will do much more good for your soul helping her...
Than you will sanctifying evil dead men [Judas]...
And theologically justifying their evils as martyrdom...

Arsenios

[Rushing Jaws]

Surely grace is in Christ, Alone ? Not in the Church, nor in anything at all in creation.

How is the Church graced ? By being favourably regarded by Christ, maybe, so that without grace's being an objective "thing", the Church is graceful so far as Christ regards it with His favour. Grace is purely and wholly in His gift - not in man's, in any sense, not even in the Church.

This could mean the Church is the community, not of grace, but of a set of people who receive it. And, that grace is not confined to the Church, but rather that the Church is the "Ground Zero" in which Grace in Person, Christ Himself, is most fully Incarnate, so that the grace which is over all creation is present "outside" the Church through the Holy Spirit Who "fills the whole earth". The purpose of the Church, is to be the privileged because God-elected-in-Christ means by which the Grace of Christ in it, is made as fully present to the rest of the world. The Church, like Jerusalem, is "in the midst of the nations", and not for its own sake, but so that God Who elected it in His eternal purpose "before the foundation of the world" might create the universe, and the earth, and all that is therein, so as to become Incarnate as "God-with-us", and communicate Himself to all nations through the ministry of His Church.

And this entire plan comes purely from the good pleasure, the *eudokia*, of God. Creation, like election (which is a crucial part of all this)is a Divine act of sheer unelicited & unelicitable grace. The Calvinists are spot-on when they say this - it sets the dealings of God with man on the firmest possible basis, because by attributing everything to God & no initiative, or native goodness, or autonomy to man, they avoid the synergism that by making man co-author of his salvation both deprives God of His Glory & founds a purely Divine work on the feebleness and wretchedness of man. The logic of their position strengthens the logic of Catholic (& EOC ?) soteriology immensely. AFAIK the Calvinist position just outlined is taken undiluted from St. Augustine. (This leaves aside the synergism that is perhaps really a form of monergism.)

AFAICS, God never turns from us; His gracious regard is always present, or rather, no creature can escape it. So we turn away from it, but mistake our sin for His turning from us; because we are egotistic creatures, and take for granted that the universe is arranged "around" us, when in reality we & all other creatures are created solely for & "around" Christ. Because we are deeply damaged by the Fall, as well as being finite by virtue of being creatures, we have to think back to front as it were.

So we can & do reject God, *from *our* POV* - but His grace is not turned from us, or else conversion would never occur.

Now, if all things are in Christ, as St. Paul says, then the Church, which he elsewhere calls His fullness, also is. So dispensing grace may in fact be the taking-up (in the privileged way referred to) of the human & created action of the Church into the Divine-human Reality of Christ. It is not a mere human act, let alone an impious human snatching at what Christ Alone can do, but an action "in Him", by those united to Him in His Holy Spirit. Or as St. John makes clear, the Church indwells, & is indwelt by, each & all of the Divine Persons. This notion of the dispensing of grace is primarily & wholly His action, & only secondarily & incompletely the Church's. The composition of Scripture is another such Divine operation through created and graced human instruments.

FWIW, ISTM that one can have the EOC position, and affirm that the Church dispenses grace. Especially if one avoids thinking of grace as a "thing", or as accessible to man acting without God & on his own initiative. This dispensing is within Christ, to creatures already graced in some measure - for the natural order is itself a gracious work of God, even though it does not sanctify. I think a synthesis of approaches is needed - Catholic, EOC, Calvinist, the lot.

This matter really needs be looked at eschatologically & in the way the NT views these things.

[apostoli]

You will be doing much more for your soul tending your ex-wife than you will answering my posts in detail, my brother...

I've been taking care of Linda for 41 years, it is a hard habit to shake, even though we have been seperated for over 20 years and divorced for around 14 years. I guess it is an RCC thing. Once one commits, there is no turning back...

As an aside: though I have concern for you, I have more concern for those who read your posts...it is they I wish to encourage to have a balance viewpoint of Christianity. As for my soul. I am ready for the final judgement!

Do you really not believe Christ when He said Judas was a devil?

Though at Jn 6:70 Jesus did say (in the English translation) "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?" (Jn 6:70). The term used by A.John is "διάβολός" (diabolos), which simply means "slanderer".

Now, if one ignores the old wives tales of the east, and their stories of the Jin (devils/demons), and one is inclined to read scripture, it is apparent that Judas (at least from a traditional reading) defamed the dicipleship of Jesus by his lifestyle. (where slander = defilement by speech and defamation = slander by action).

It is worth noting that Jesus never called Judas "the Devil" or a "Jin" (demon), though he did directly call A.Peter "Σατανᾶ" (satana=adversary) for attempting to cause an obstacle in the salvation plan (a common EOC accusation against the RCC).

A.John tells us that "The evening meal was being served, and the devil had already prompted Judas Iscariot, son of Simon, to betray Jesus" (NIV Jn 13:2). In contrast Jesus did call A.Peter "Satan" saying "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men" (Mt 16:23).

So, in your opinion, who is the greatest representative of Satan according to Jesus? Judas or Peter? From an EOC perspective, I'm guessing you have to say Peter. (?) Even though Jesus told Peter to feed my sheep/lambs, and entrusted his (Jesus') congregation to Peter!!!

George, it does pay to read scripture, rather than listen to old house wives tales...the things I've parroted and you have objected to, are the direct ramblings of EOC escetic monks from Mt Athos and elsewhere... And I agree with you! The EOC ideas I parroted, and you objected to, are totally dubious ideas!!!

Are you really going to canonize Judas as a Christian Martyr-Saint?

Nope! But elements of the EOC would have it so, and segments of the EOC/OOC have done so, including Judas in the canon of the saints (the EOC/OOC is not without its sects). Heh! Logically, it is no more reprehensible than having Constantine (who is known to have commited matricide & infantcide & worse) as a saint!

Do you really think that there is no difference between martyrdom and suicide?

Depends! Read up on the Agonisticis (whom Augustine termed the Circumcellions). In fact, read up on the legends of the early "martyrs", lots of people (usually women) throwing themselves into rivers or off rooftops to escape defilement. In fact, getting back to your Donatist theme (which believe it or not we haven't diverted from), there was huge citicism of anyone that heeded Jesus' warning and fled from persecution - all were expected to confront martyrdom! Particularly, in the ascetic heartland of North Africa, EOC people fronted up to the authorities and demanded to be executed! Go to the library, read up on the subject! I have absolutely no need to fabricate what went on in reality!!!

The RCC had a different viewpoint that put value on one's life. Flee rather than confront... Read the histories, the RCC viewpoint was/is heavily criticised by the EOC/OOC.

I mean, you sounded pretty good for awhile...Now I am wondering if you are even a Christian...

Then wonder about your church, because all I have done is recite the opinion coming out of the EOC!!! I never incinuated I believed it...

You seem lost in your fear of mechanical rote...

Not lost at all. Merely observant! Mechanical rote was/is the reason God rejected the Jews. The Bible tells us so...

And in love of your smarmy emotionality...

Abraham in scripture is the only person described as a friend of God. Why was that so?

And you seem to know only these two possibilities...

Or is it you that only see two possibilities? My paradigm excludes both your possibilities...

Take good care of her, your ex-...

I always have...

You will do much more good for your soul helping her...

My soul doesn't need nurturing, merely the maintenance one finds in following Christ. If I die tonight, I am confident in the final judgement... It is strange. Until today I hadn't questioned myself on that score, but today, thinking on Ezekiel 18, I am full of confidence!!!

Than you will sanctifying evil dead men [Judas]...And theologically justifying their evils as martyrdom...

Heh! As I said above, all I've done is repeat ideas coming from EOC ascetics. Judas is fully demonised in the RCC...

Hopefully, from your distain for the ideas I related that come from the EOC, you now understand why I have such a distain for the self-righteous ascetics living on Mt Athos and elsewhere...

[apostoli]

[COLOR="#B22222"]The Calvinists are spot-on when they say this - it sets the dealings of God with man on the firmest possible basis, because by attributing everything to God & no initiative, or native goodness, or autonomy to man, they avoid the synergism that by making man co-author of his salvation both deprives God of His Glory & founds a purely Divine work on the feebleness and wretchedness of man. The logic of their position strengthens the logic of Catholic (& EOC ?) soteriology immensely. AFAIK the Calvinist position just outlined is taken undiluted from St. Augustine. (This leaves aside the synergism that is perhaps really a form of monergism.)

Phil 2:5 indicates there is a necessity for our participation in our salvation. That is: salvation is definitely a free gift from God the Father, but a free gift must me received freely (ie: no strings attached in either direction. Otherwise it ain't a gift!)

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Surely grace is in Christ, Alone ? Not in the Church, nor in anything at all in creation.

How is the Church graced ? By being favourably regarded by Christ, maybe, so that without grace's being an objective "thing", the Church is graceful so far as Christ regards it with His favour. Grace is purely and wholly in His gift - not in man's, in any sense, not even in the Church.

That is not the way the Church has been historically understood by Christians...
Paul was killing Christians, and Christ asked: "Why are you persecuting ME?"

The Church is the Body of Christ Who is Her Head... The Grace of the Church therefore IS the Grace of Christ - of Christ's Body...

The Church which IS the Body of Christ has MEMBERS who range from deified to evil... And the Church is thereby more than human, and less than God ... In a word, welcome to the Mystery that the Church IS... For it is divine and human, the Body of Christ with human members...


Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

As for my soul. I am ready for the final judgement!

Jesus never called Judas "the Devil" or a "Jin" (demon)

Save that for your chelas... Jins are not a part of Christ's ministry... But ARE of YOURS...

So, in your opinion, who is the greatest representative of Satan according to Jesus? Judas or Peter? From an EOC perspective, I'm guessing you have to say Peter. (?) Even though Jesus told Peter to feed my sheep/lambs, and entrusted his (Jesus') congregation to Peter!!!

Perfect illustration straight out of the Gospels of the difference between repentance and remorse... Peter had repentance, and Judas merely had some really bad feelings about the whole thing don't you know... I mean, my goodness, he actually FELT SO BAD that he went out and committed suicide with a rope... It just must have been SO TRAUMATIC for him... He MARTYRED HIMSELF for the GREAT SERVICE he did for mankind when he betrayed Christ to those nice Pharisees and Pontius Pilate...

Peter was lucky... He didn't FEEL ALL THAT BAD like poor Judas did, did he? He just had a good cry and Jesus restored him... He probably had a really nice Jewish family he grew up in and garnered some emotional support that poor Judas could not find... I mean, even JESUS abandoned Judas, isn't that right! Boy oh boy, it's a good thing we have YOU to straighten out our thinking about lucky Peter and that poor martyr Judas... For a while there, we were all thinking that there was a MORAL difference between the two... A difference in the inner quality of their ACTIONS in response to their sin, but you have sure helped us out here...

Er... Thanksalot...

My soul doesn't need nurturing

Got all it needed from your family, right? Really lucky for you - Too bad for those not so fortunate as you - THOSE poor slobs REALLY NEED GOD, unlike you - You are ALL SET, and READY for the Last Judgement, right?

all I've done is repeat ideas coming from EOC ascetics.

You would do better, though probably not much, to quote your source and give your opinion... Your RE-PETER seems to be mal-functioning in a distrubing spray pattern into the wind...

Arsenios

[apostoli]

Hello George,

It is very rare that we at TwEB share our personal experiences, mostly we here, are caught up in conflict and controversary. I wish to change that scenario. Yesterday, Linda (my ex-wife) went through her procedure. No sign of cancer etc! Which is a relief! But they are still investigating her current predicament (maybe just the inset of old age?). I must admit that over the last couple of weeks I had great concern, even though I knew Linda was a drama queen (take 50% off what she says is true and then deduct another 50% ;-) As a male chauvenistic pig, I anticipate all female reactions as over stated!

That aside, though our conversation has at times been somewhat acromonious, I wish to express my thanks for the conversation, it has gotten me through an emotional time. Friendship comes in many forms...as does the support of the Spirit...

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Hello George,

It is very rare that we at TwEB share our personal experiences, mostly we here, are caught up in conflict and controversary. I wish to change that scenario. Yesterday, Linda (my ex-wife) went through her procedure. No sign of cancer etc! Which is a relief! But they are still investigating her current predicament (maybe just the inset of old age?). I must admit that over the last couple of weeks I had great concern, even though I knew Linda was a drama queen (take 50% off what she says is true and then deduct another 50% ;-) As a male chauvenistic pig, I anticipate all female reactions as over stated!

That aside, though our conversation has at times been somewhat acromonious, I wish to express my thanks for the conversation, it has gotten me through an emotional time. Friendship comes in many forms...as does the support of the Spirit...

Getting old has a lot of things going - A grave matter indeed! Skin issues, and other matters that assault the pride of the flesh... It is a blessed time indeed, and has the full potential for a DQ to center stage what cannot be fixed, but only masked some for those who do not know you well, and them for only a time...

I am sorry the matter has been hard on you... All arguments with God end in death... Most people argue with God and do not even know they are engaged in a conversation... We are born, we live, we suffer, we die... The last two involve us in ontological arguments with our mortality, and these arguments we lose...

There is great grace in old age and suffering and a long, slow, death... But only IF we are giving thanks to God in ALL things... It is the NATURAL ASKESIS of the human organism... Libido declines, ego declines, pains increase, death follows... Even the natural depression involved is by the Grace of God... For all of this brings us, if we allow, into the embrace of God in our sufferings... We do not have to allow, and if we do not, we are arguing with God, and complaining, and DQing, and seeing doctor after doctor, and on and on... And the richer we are, the more we can spend on our argument against Him... We can find Viagra, and narcotic pain killers, and antidepressants of all denominations...

Thank you for being my friend...

We don't have to agree on squat...

Straight up...

Arsenios

ps - I will pray for Linda...

[apostoli]

Thank you for being my friend...

Friendship, imo, is in the living, rather than the doing. Though we have different viewpoints in how to do our journey, I think we have the same target...

We don't have to agree on squat...

So it is with true friends. Have an argument then have a beer, analyse it and maybe have a laugh about it! Life is too short to be greavious at every corner ;-}

I will pray for Linda...

Thankyou! Linda had a lousy childhood. Her father died decades ago and we aren't sure if her mum is still alive. And she has never fully recovered from the death of our youngest son (he had three relapses of Leukemia and died a month short of his 22nd birthday). Then my second eldest son committed suicide on New Year's day 2005, for which Linda blames herself. My eldest son is estranged from both of us, and my other son is tripping about somewhere in Asia with his wife on their way to Europe. So in a lot of ways, I've all she has got in terms of family. For much of our married life she was a fanatical JW, but about 20 years ago she lost all faith... Me, I was born RCC and will probably die RCC. I've lived through various challenges, but I have a simple faith...I will survive no matter what...