Donatism and the Locus of Grace

[Rdr. Arsenios]

So can we say that God HAS Divinity? If divinity is the ousia of God, then it is a possession of the particular hypostasis, of which there are three, with one ousia for them all together...

Nope! There are three hypostases, each of whom has independent possession of their own ousia, albeit as the Son and the Spirit were imprinted with an exact replica of the Father's ousia, their independent ousie are identical. Same idea as with "mankind", wherein the ousia "mankind" common to us all, though independently possessed by each of us, originated in Adam.

If there was "one ousia for them all together", you'd have to advocate either Sabellianism or adopt the Platonic 4th man. For instance: in the time of Arius there were ding bats (deemed by the fathers as being heretics) who spoke of the Trinity as being like three wicks in the same oil...

I had missed this earlier in our conversation - I remember you explaining the imprint doctrine, but I missed its significance... Thank-you for repeating it for me... I can probably lay claim to being the DEEF dingo-bat... At least mentally... WHAT?:??

The Creed simply states: ὁμοούσιον τῷ Πατρί Generic dative of means, I think you will agree, but your doctrine of imprinting would seem to make the ousia into three instead of one, even though imprinted with total exactness in every last and particular minutiatatae... And this for the inescapable reason that as you say, "There are three hypostases, each of whom has independent possession of their own ousia,"

So you have but placed the three wicks into separate oils, where each hypostasis IS the container of its own oil... And the three oils are identical but separate, separated by hypostasis... Yet the Creed states not "identically", but "same"... ὁμο- And the Fathers love to set up these antimonies of thought - the "men...de" constructions - The three are truly three, yet the three are one, truly one... And this stresses what is for them the fundamentally mysterious nature of God, His unknowability to human understanding... By insisting that 1=3, the Holy Fathers but affirm the Apophatic Theology of the Eastern Church... The Uncreated God is not known in His Essence, but only in His uncreated energies, which themselves ARE God...

I have to guess that your theory of imprinting is original with you... An attempt to rationalize the Mystery of the Three in One in Three... You DO, I am sure, remember Paul telling us: "We are holding the Mystery of the Faith in a purified conscience..." followed by: "We HAVE the Nous of Christ..." And the telling feature of this little part of Paul's writings is that the Faith of Christ is held in the Nous of Christ which we can HAVE, but ONLY IF we purify our conscience... And it says utterly nothing about Aristotelian referential epistemics and their "knowledge"... And this because the truth of Christ has no part with the wisdom of the world, but makes of such wisdom foolishness...

There is a dualism in this world, wherein the logic of the world and the senses is opposed to the Way of Christ - The Cross is foolishness to the world, but Life to those who are believing... Why would anyone take on suffering willingly? Yet Christ tells us who are willing to take up our cross of death daily, for we are baptized into His death, and Paul reports to us: "I die daily..." And Christ Himself in his great Day and Time SUFFERED, for that is what PASSION means, and we are to follow Him... The flesh is weak, and must be brought into obedience to the soul which is brought into obedience to the spirit which is in obedience to God... THAT is the right ordering of the "parts" of the human condition... And that is only attained through suffering... Through self-denial and participating in the life of Christ in His Body, the Church...

How that all works (together) is simply Mysterion...

No mystery, pure metaphysical philosophy.

If it were that, then Aristotle would have been a Christian... The 'purity' you ascribe to metaphysics in philosophy is perhaps a typos, but the reality of that purity is purity in heart, for as Paul tells us, "We hold the MYSTERY of the Faith in a PURE conscience..."


So I just had this errant thought... I talk with you as if we are the only two in this room... Is anyone else even following this discussion? I mean, it is a fair piece far, wouldn't you say?

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

George, God works in mysterious ways. If he has guided you to the EOC, then he has a plan for you...if it was purely your conscious choice, pray for guidance...

By MY conscious choice, I would never have become a Christian, even after meeting God... I knew Him 14 years before He told me He is the Christian God, and I called BS on Him, took it back immediately, and complained that I don't even LIKE Christians... To no avail... I am a Christian, and from there, He led me into the Orthodox Faith... Even to where I live now... But I am ALWAYS praying for guidance, and for His Mercy, for myself, for you, for everyone I know, for those I meet, for the world...

Thank-you for your pastoral concern... Did you study the Palamite controversy with Barlaam? Not all are called to prophesy, to apostleship, to the Priesthood, so there is plenty of room in the Church for those who never encounter God directly, and those are most... I had so shut myself off from all kinds of "mysticism", and especially the Christian ones, whom I despised, that God would have had a hard time coming up with an intermediary I would have listened to... iow It was because of my extreme sinfulness that I had the direct encounter, and not at all because of any goodness on my part... But unlike so many other criminals, when I met God, I stayed... I hung on like a bulldog... I would cheerfully die rather than loosen my grip....

So I appreciate your concern that I may be off the rails in gnosticism or worse - Gnostics have tried to recruit me, I should hasten to add - But they always exude this odoure of skanky spiritual sleeze that fronts them off at the outset... Dogmatics sends them packing - And things like prayer rules, confession, penance, repentance, mastering rather than punishing the body, and on and on...

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Towards the end of the intro to "Theology and Mysticism in the Tradition of the Eastern Church" Lossky's makes an interesting statement...

"It was necessary that a certain cleavage should occur between personal experience and the common faith,
between the life of the individual and the life of the Church,
that spirituality and dogma, mysticism and theology, could become two distinct spheres;
and that souls unable to find adequate nourishment in the theological*summae*
should turn to search greedily in the accounts of individual mystical experience
in order to reinvigorate themselves in an atmosphere of spirituality.
Mystical individualism has remained alien to the spirituality of the Eastern Church".

This is a weakness, imo, of Lossky's approach - The fact is that those who fully live the Gospel will often have spiritual gifts, but the fact is that they seldom speak of them, and when they do, it is usually tangentially... Except for, of course, the spiritual giants... Elder Joseph, the Hesychast was one of these, as was St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco... And these transformed everything and everyone around them, could heal diseases, see the future, and so forth... In your terms, they were somewhat like Padre Pio on steroids... Without the stigmata... But normally, the Orthodox do not go around talking about their mystical experiences, unless there is need... And that is seldom - Such matters are taken as a matter of course, and the danger in speaking of them is vainglory, and that will take a person down quicker than most anything...

The point of this is that one lives on a daily basis in prayers and labors and fasting, and does not seek the spiritual experiences, for the Christian life is not about these, but is about self-denial, taking up one's own cross, mortifying the flesh, and all the other things that purify the heart and find us living a repentant life... To imagine that we SHOULD have such experience is itself vainglory... And in truth, it is for those of weak faith that such events often occur, for those who, like David, are "poor and needy..." and need constant reassurance... The purification of the heart takes many years, and when cleansed, God comes [or NOT] according to His purposes, but one's own task is perseverence in the Commandments of Christ... Vigils and fasting and services and almsgiving and labors in prayer...

Earlier Lossky assserted...

"...spirituality and dogma, mysticism and theology, are inseparably linked in the life of the Church. As regards the Eastern Church, we have already remarked that she makes no sharp distinction between theology and mysticism, between the realm of the common faith and that of personal experience. Thus, if we would speak of mystical theology in the eastern tradition we cannot do otherwise than consider it within the dogmatic setting of the Orthodox Church".

Indeed so, and it is ONLY within that setting that it carries much weight... Anyone can have spiritual experiences, but only those living the Faith will have Christian ones, and these not necessarily - Christ had three after fasting for 40 days and nights after Baptism, and they were all demonic... And it is with such visions that Monks contend in the desert...

And still earlier he observes...

"...the personal experiences of different masters of the spiritual life...more often than not remain inaccessible to us: even though they may find verbal expression."

The Philokalia is a great example - 4 volumes of writings of the Fathers of monasticism... An Orthodox lay instructor studied them for several years and was ready to begin teaching them, and went to his elder for the blessing, and the elder told him to study the lives of the Saints... And he said he would and began his request ofr the blessing again and the elder interrupted him and told him how important knowing the lives of the Saints is... And when he began the third time, the elder explained how one can use the lives of the Saints when one does not know the answer to a question...

So he gave up, and kissed his elder's hand, promising to study much more the lives of the saints, and concluding that it was not a good time to ask for the blessing to teach what he had organized into several lectures from the Philokalia... And he left the room, but as he was closing the door, the elder stopped him, and said: "Oh, and by the way, regarding the Philokalia... You don't know ANYTHING about the Philokalia..."

It is a story he loves to tell... Volume II was one of the books that guided me INTO Orthodoxy, by God's Grace...

From my viewpoint: though on one hand Lossky's argues against "mystical individualism", he justifies it on the other hand as being within the "dogmatic setting of the Orthodox Church". As the church is suppose to be about communion (eklesia is basically a gathering of citizens), it seems that there are those who seperate and do not share...this is a huge concern of mine, given, imo, it is totally against the teaching of the NT...

The spiritual battles of the Monks are legendary, and almost never described... We get occassional tid-bits concerning them - Paul the Apostle gave us a little taste of his battles with a demonic thorn in his flesh, and how he had to subdue his body, and not as a shadow boxer beating the air either! But they fight these battles, overcoming the evil and demonic powers that rise up against them, or not... The Ladder of Divine Ascent [Climacus] has an icon that shows the demons pulling down monks tempted by weaknesses and leading them away captive...

It is a serious war against powers and principalities... Yet the general rule is that there are no great gifts given without great temptations being overcome, so the curse becomes the blessing, as the mystery of evil elevates the good...

As a general rule, monks are just the working class in the Army of God, and give blessings and helps to those who come to them in need...

Arsenios

[apostoli]

So you have but placed the three wicks into separate oils, where each hypostasis IS the container of its own oil... And the three oils are identical but separate, separated by hypostasis... Yet the Creed states not "identically", but "same"...

"Same" is simply a synonym of "identical". If things are not identical in the focus in question then they are not the "same". This idea is core to the disputes of the later 4th century (see below).

ὁμο- And the Fathers love to set up these antimonies of thought - the "men...de" constructions - The three are truly three, yet the three are one, truly one...

My reference point, and I suggest that of the fathers, is Genesis 2:24 where in respect of mankind the plan was two become as if one. I see the Trinity in the same way, three hypostases, one existence. Unfortunately, in history, mankind has demonstrated individualism so the concept of cohesive unity is foreign to us, or at least outside of our experience. Though in my life expeience I have experienced a semblance of such ie: in respect of our children, my ex-wife and I act as one (people think we are strange and don't understand why we aren't together. Neither of us has remarried, after over 20 years of seperation we still take care of each other when neccessary etc. We may as well be remarried. Trouble is, as individuals we can't live with each other!).

And this stresses what is for them the fundamentally mysterious nature of God, His unknowability to human understanding... By insisting that 1=3, the Holy Fathers but affirm the Apophatic Theology of the Eastern Church... The Uncreated God is not known in His Essence, but only in His uncreated energies, which themselves ARE God...

As I said before, Jesus says henceforth we will intimately know and see the Father. The energies draw us, but it is to the hypostasis of the Father that they draw us. One cannot have an intimate relationship with "energies", one has an intimate relationship with a person (a hypostsis)!

I have to guess that your theory of imprinting is original with you...

I doubt I've ever had an original thought in this respect. My articulation of the belief might possibly have a semblance to uniqueness, but it has a firm foundation in the teaching of Athanasius and Basil in particular. Not to mention the 3rd century father Novation, who in my reading, convinced me of the validity of Trinitarian teaching (one of the few books I retain in hard copy, it is ]available online).

George, one thing from my studies of the early Christian centuries I am convinced of, is that no Christian (orthodox or otherwise) ever desputed the Son as being God in some respect. The big fight was for his humanity, and more particularly his reality. In the later early centuries the major orthodox debate was whether the Son was God in person (hyptostasis) or form (morphe) - thus the debates of the mid 4th century (same essence, like in essence, unlike in essence etc).

In my education, we were taught to learn from the antagonists. What were their objections? Once we understand the objections we can answer them, until then there is no reason, only violent response (hands over the ears and stamp the feet). My pursuit has been to find a rhetoric that answers the objections of Muslims, Jews, JWs etc, conversations such as ours aid me in refining my language...

If it were that, then Aristotle would have been a Christian...

Funny enough there were/are Eastern fathers that proposed/propose that Plato and Arisototle were proto-Christians! In fact, it is reported that the only reason Philo's works have survived down into modern times, is that the Christian mainstream groups preserved them (the Jews reject his works outright, as they perceive them as hellenised distortions of their faith). Eusebuis.C was a Philonist, as was a significant portion of the church until 325CE. As an intro to the controversies of the 4th century I recommend reading Eunomius' apology who is dubbed an extreme Arian, he attempted to rationalise and explain away the concepts of dyad and triad.

The 'purity' you ascribe to metaphysics in philosophy is perhaps a typos, but the reality of that purity is purity in heart, for as Paul tells us, "We hold the MYSTERY of the Faith in a PURE conscience..."

I don't abscribe any purity to metaphysics. The major orthodox fathers employed it as a practical tool to combat the Platonist thinking of their opponents.

So I just had this errant thought... I talk with you as if we are the only two in this room... Is anyone else even following this discussion? I mean, it is a fair piece far, wouldn't you say?

As in all my conversations here at TWEB, I talk with you as if we are the only two in this room, but as in life, I realise there are those that might be listening in. In the last few days I've noted an esculation in our number of viewers. We may have somewhere between 10 to 45 people regularly following our conversation, so I must admit I have become a little gaurded in what I say, and not as candid as I might be if we were in a room alone together ;-}

[apostoli]

iow It was because of my extreme sinfulness that I had the direct encounter, and not at all because of any goodness on my part... But unlike so many other criminals, when I met God, I stayed... I hung on like a bulldog... I would cheerfully die rather than loosen my grip....

George, do not denigrate yourself, that is the job of us here at TWEB ;-}

The fact you found the turn around, and have stuck to it, is a major victory on your part! And a thanks be to God! You must at some stage have knocked (even though you may not have been consciously aware that you did) and the door was open to you. It is an experience that us who go through rote christianity may never experience!

Though my transition may have not been as dramatic, I have gone through a transition in my life, via a "life of Job" type experience, that through a long progression shook me from faithlessness into faithfulness - basically rote to activity. So to an extent I can relate to your experience (we all have a past, but now look forward to a positive future). And a thanks be to God! For though in worldly terms I'm worse off, so much of my life is so much better than it was! And I trust, in the later respect, the same for you...

[Rdr. Arsenios]

St. Gregory Palamas formally states " the venerable Cyril, showing the difference between God's essence and energy, says that to generate belongs to the Divine nature, whereas to create belongs to His Divine energy. This he [Cyril] shows clearly saying, "nature and energy are not the same." (Capita 96 and 97.)

This is a lovely distinction...

Have you ever seriously tried donning the apophatic Patristic approach? It begins with the absolute unknowability of God... It then progresses to the revelation of God by God to man via the holy ones of old... And in these latter days, His revelation of Himself to man as Himself a man, Jesus Christ, the God-man, the only one...

By the time you get to your quote, you find Palamas discussing the Divine Physis, which includes both His Divine Energies and His Divine Essence, and this Divine Nature can generate and create, but it is the Divine Energies that create, and the divine Essence that generates [begets]... The Divine Energies create existence out of non-existence, but the Divine Essence begets the Son - eg brings forth God out of God...

So that when you get to Peter, we find these two sentences;

1Pe 4:13
But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings;
that, when his glory shall be revealed,
ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

2Pe 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises:
that by these ye should become partakers of the Divine Nature,
having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

So the way is clear, which is purification from sin through suffering:

1Pe_4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh,
arm yourselves likewise with the same mind:
for he that hath suffered in the flesh
hath ceased from sin;

Unto partaking of Christ's suffering, because it is by means of this partaking that we cease sinning, and therein, having escaped the corruption in the world through lust, we cease sinning, and therein again we partake of the Divine Nature...

So that our question is this: WHICH Divine Nature? Do we partake of the Essence of God? Or do we partake of His Energies? And if the Essence, then we therein BECOME GOD, and have the power to create creation from nothing... And this clearly does not happen... But we DO partake of His Energies, and these gave John his visions, and Peter's shadow the power to heal, for all of this is not by nature, but by Grace, for it is God Who does these things through us, and for a fact, we ALL participate to a degree in this matter, whenever we pray for someone... For God hears our prayers, and results ensue, and we are not the Author of those results...

You see, if you understand Essence as that which makes God to be God, then we simply cannot participate in it without ourselves being God... But the Energies of God that create creation ARE accessible TO His creation, and to us especially, because we are created in creation according to His Divine Image...

So that nature and energy are not the same, nor essence...

The fathers speak of the Divine Energies, and we in the West tend to dumb down this term to mean merely "operations", eg the movement of things in concord... [or thereabouts], but it is the quickening that is in view, and the energizing of the spirit within a person that is God in Power that is hidden herein... Paul talks about it some, saying that the Kingdom of Heaven is in power, not words, wherein he preaches Christ Crucified [eg suffering], and therein shows God's Power through himself to those he is instructing...

This energizing is one of the palpable tools in the souls of a fair number of Orthodox elders as we speak... I have run into it more than once, and no, I do not wield it... But I know some who do... And just as one does not give razorblades to infants, nor knives to toddlers, nor guns to 8 year olds, God does not give this Grace to those who have not yet attained a "pure conscience"... So it is not common, and as a general rule, it is not used unless needed, and is not seen, but is hidden... It is but one of the Gifts of the Apostolic Church...

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

George, do not denigrate yourself, that is the job of us here at TWEB ;-}

Lord have mercy! The teaching of the Fathers is that we extend mercy all around us to others, but never to ourselves... We do not forgive ourselves but ask God's forgiveness, and receive it in confession and repentance... Ours is not to judge others, so that it most decidedly is not the job of T-Webbers to attack each other... And the pity 'tis, they so often do just that... I mean, I cannot tell you how wonderful it is to just have a conversation with you without all the axe-grinding that goes on here so regularly... We don't see eye to eye... We are both members of apostolic Churches that are not in Communion, and we are both addressing issues that are simply important... And we care about the welfare of each other's souls...

This motto of T-Web, "WE DEBATE THEOLOGY... SERIOUSLY!!" can only feed ego and erudition at the expense of repentance and prayer... So thanks again for being my friend in this discussion...

I meant to ask you - You feel like you have done some teaching of classes... Can I ask you your short bio maybe? And your place in the RCC?

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

In my education, we were taught to learn from the antagonists. What were their objections? Once we understand the objections we can answer them, until then there is no reason, only violent response (hands over the ears and stamp the feet). My pursuit has been to find a rhetoric that answers the objections of Muslims, Jews, JWs etc, conversations such as ours aid me in refining my language...

The Orthodox tend to not seek such answers to objections on your general level, but instead will enter into them at a personal, pastoral level, for the sake of a person who is having an issue entering into the Faith... I remember my first Priest, when I came to his Church, and he took one look at me, and being a man of many worldly talents, he sized me up and concluded that my philosophy would not allow me to enter the Faith, and he even said so, saying: "Are you telling me that you are going to believe that a woman gave birth without male fertilization of any kind, and that the one she gave birth to is God???" And it took me 4 years to get baptized by him... But what can I say? Not my call... Ruined three car motors making the 100 kilometer drive up brutal hills each Sunday... All I could tell him was: "God wants me to acquire the Orthodox Christian Faith, and if that Faith teaches the manufacture of green cheese on the far side of the moon, I don't care - I am here to acquire it..." To no avail, mind you... I was about to become the first mitered catechumen in the history of Orthodoxy, so long did it take... I mean, it is a convert Church, and most of the clergy were recovering Evangellicals from the CCC... I finally threw a fit and managed to get baptized, and we got it all sorted out OK... Turns out I throw a MEAN fit! Never again!

Looking for a narrative that will persuade Muslims and JW's seems destined for loss... I read "Theology of Mission" on the entry of the Faith into Alaska, and what they did was tell the natives that their beliefs were preparing them for the One True God's worship, and the result is that when you ask a native Aleut what his "Native Religion" is, he will tell you "Orthodoxy"... Because the Truth was there guiding his ancestors toward the Truth that the Orthodox Faith is for many, many centuries and beyond...

So that looking for a way to validate one's antagonist's viewpoint in those kinds of terms might prove more useful to you, rather than learning a proper refutation that he cannot answer...

Arsenios

[apostoli]

I meant to ask you - You feel like you have done some teaching of classes... Can I ask you your short bio maybe? And your place in the RCC?

I'm a nobody. I have no formal qualification in the RCC or elsewhere. My only qualification to teaching, is via my previous job which required me to mentor grads & off & on an MBA candidate. Possibly in my old age I've been given a gift from the Spirit, I'll leave that to you to judge...

[Rdr. Arsenios]

I'm a nobody. I have no formal qualification in the RCC or elsewhere. My only qualification to teaching, is via my previous job which required me to mentor grads & off & on an MBA candidate. Possibly in my old age I've been given a gift from the Spirit, I'll leave that to you to judge...

Ya know, I THOUGHT so!
Cracks me up!

I don't judge, but I thank God for you...
God raises up some of the most unlikely types...

I got to the point of doing my masters thesis, and said within myself: "The answers are not here..." And I walked away from a career in the Philosophy Department...

Ever read "The Doctrine of Being in the Aristotelian Metaphysics" by Joseph Owens at the Pontifical Institute of Medieval Studies in Toronto, Canada? He took some 10 years or so to write it, his PhD Thesis... That was one leg I was using, plus Aristotle himself, of course - He understood Being as Act according to Owens...

But my path was heading off the rails is my search for inner healing, which was not available anywhere in the 'normal' world, and I found it was not in the abnormal world either, and when I got to that point, I turned from life on this earth - It was over, and there was no where else to look - And after a few temptations that come when you stand THAT ground, God came that first Christmas, and answered all the things I had been seeking for 36 years, and it took less than 30 seconds... And two more Christmas encounters were yet coming!

And now, like you, at the end of life, the old skills are coming back into play... The Greek, the philosophical skills, the life experiences, even boatbuilding... Everything I had thrown away, wife and raising children, career, all of it, is making its way back into a life deprived of them, and of those I loved, in a rage for truth and healing...

The Apostle Paul is no stranger to me... Nor are the Genessarenes... Nor is St. Veronica [The Woman with an Issue of Blood]... All are, as it were, compadres in experience... I cannot disciple others to do what I did, but the Church disciples the same path of personal wreckage except without the doing of the evils I was doing... For the Way of the Cross is unto mortification of the flesh, unto despair of life itself, that God should suffuse His Grace into those so mortified...

Arsenios

[apostoli]

Ya know, I THOUGHT so!
Cracks me up!

I don't judge, but I thank God for you...
God raises up some of the most unlikely types...

George,

There are several traditions in the church that encourage public confession. It is good for the soul! And so I've decided to open my life to you. Well a highly censored version, and only enough of an outline so that we can get to know each other as friends, and hopefully as compadres...

I'm the youngest of three, my sister is 6 years older and my brother 4 years older. My mother had reoccuring bouts of rheumatic fever, and had a recurance when she was pregnant with me. So, I'm of short stature (165cm tall - roughtly 5'6") and according to my sister I had a sickly infancy. Consequently, my mother was over protective of me in one respect, but as she thought she was about to die tomorrow, she made me fiercely independent. By the age of eight, I could cook, clean, wash & iron - get my own breakfast, make myself ready and off to school etc, so apart from inputs (food & housing) I needed no one! By the time I was 13yo I was relatively financially independent via doing delivery jobs after school, paper runs and odd jobs on weekends etc (nb: my sister's protestant in-laws, expected me to be a millionare by the time I was 20yo). I knew how to make a quid from an early age!

We were in the later part of the Vietnam war in those days (about 1966/7). I lived in Coogee, a beach side suburb (about 5 miles south of Bondi, and 5 miles south-east of SYD CBD), and we'd get lots of American guys on R&R, predominately Afro-American. They were lonely guys, and as wise guys we exploited them (or were they the wise guys that exploited us?). We were under age, but we could facilitate their needs, and more importantly direct them where to go, where they could meet girls, and charged as "tour guides" accordingly. In short, I was a juvenile hustler...And if I do say myself, a very good one!!! I forgot to mention that my mum was a religious fanatic, and without that influence I just might have gravitated to the criminal element...

It is weird, about 1968, apart from the bikers, surfers and the mods, there were two major gangs in the eastern suburbs that were highly organised, almost organised along boy scout lines, into juniors, seniors and elders. Because I was such a hustler, I basically knew everybody in the heirarchy on both sides and so was an untouchable. I can remember going home one night, and between Dolphin st & Coogee Bay rd (about 100+ meters) there was a wall of bodies on either side of the street ready for a rumble. Not knowing what to do, I walked down the centre of the road. Once I got to the end, all hell broke loose...

I often think I'm under some protection, as over the years I've been places and then the next day have read in the papers that some murder or other had taken place, close to the time I was there. There have been heaps of events. I'm either very lucky or very stupid or...I don't know how to explain this: I've been in some very threatening situations, either the guys viewed me as no threat and so backed off, or they viewed me as the unpredicatable and backed off (the wisest choice - as a young man I did have a validated reputation (though more often than not, I did a Fonz and bluffed my way out of situations ;-)).

I remember one event, when I was about 16/17yo. One friday night, my then girl friend and I were cuddling under a tree in Hyde Park, just near Elizabeth St (center of SYD CBD) and there was a riot going on. Suddenly this group of skin heads came running towards us (scared me half to death) and then the leader stopped and politely asked me the time (he had to me home by 11pm). It was a violent time, but full of weirdness, frustration and protest...but at the same time, one of occasional gentleness and friendship - the Catholic church a couple of years earlier in their youth outreach programme had instituted coffee shops in church halls or spaces under churches (well they were a bit late, the hippy era had already ended) but when you are 15-18yo and there is nothing else on offer, we'd sit around and listen to folk music - the plus factor was it kept us off the streets, and from a guy viewpoint, we got to meet girls (nb: I went to an all boys school)...

Around this time (about 1969) I had my personal harem (we were all virgins), four girls that would drag me around from here to there, and they introduced me to a branch of the CYS (Catholic Youth Society) over at Maroubra (couple of miles walk from Coogee). There I met our chaplain, Father Murphy (every second priest in those days seemed to have the surname Murphy). This guy was in charge of the Catholic Education Centre and was a full on theologian. If I have become a teacher, it is this guy that sowed the seeds!

Anyway, flash forward. I'm on a train to Canberra (Couple of hundred miles south of SYD), met Linda, and after a time we had babies. When I met Linda, she'd just been baptised into a Congregationist church. From her account, her family were basically atheists but she wanted religion. When we lived at Coogee my mum got her involved in the RCC, and Linda was devout. Then we moved to a developing suburb about 60k from SYD. To put things in perspective. I was barely 22yo, two kids and a mortgage, and with commute time was away from home for at least 12 hours a day. Linda was 19yo going on 20yo, two kids and was confronted with long lonely days. The JWs knocked and then a long history began...

Flash back! I forgot to mention my dad. I never really knew him. When he was 5yo his father deserted his family, and they were left destitute. My grandmother did whatever she could (there were no social services in those days) and my dad ended up farmed out into foster care - literally! He & his older brother worked as farm hands down in Crookwell (about 150 miles south west of Sydney). Imu, primary schooling was free in the 1920s, but high school cost. The family my dad worked for could only afford to send the older brother to high school. So my dad only had a primary school education. Which is a real pity, as he was an intuitively intelligent man (he could pull your car apart and put it back together with ease (he did so with the bomb I had as a first car)). Anyway, come 1939, at the age of 21yo he and his mates joined the army "to see a bit of the world and die". He was captured by the Germans in the battle for Crete (1940?) and spent the rest of the war in an internment camp in a little village somewhere in Germany ("You vill vork on the farm or be shot!" So the story goes, my dad said "stuff that, I'll vork on the farm!"). I've only heard the funny stories from my dad, but his war mates have hinted at some of the horrors they went through, and my mother once told me he suffered from horrible nightmares when they were first married.

Truth is: I never knew my dad. He worked 6 nights a week as a factory worker and until he retired, we only saw him late Sunday afternoon, and public holidays. So, for all intents and purposes I grew up in a lone mother household... Thus my only male role models were the brothers (monks) at school...However, in terms of caring and providing for one's family I hold my dad as the superemo!!!

To a huge extent, this is how I see God. The absentee father, who though we might never see him, or have any direct interactivity with him, we know he is there providing for us.

Flash forward! Here I am 19yo and about to become a dad. I was doing Ok, I had a couple of cleaning contracts but figured if I was going to support a family I better get a career. In those days you needed 6 subjects to get into Uni. I got three first levels, Geography, History & Economics, a second level in English and some other subject, and totally bombed out in 2Full mathematics (I wasted a whole year just picking up a 3rd level in mathematics - ironically, years later I could tutor 2Full with success). Anyway, with Linda pregnant I couldn't go to Uni, but those accademic achievements got me a job as a clerk in the HO of an major OZ enterprise (As a cleaning contractor I earned more in a day than I earned as a clerk in a week, but sustainability was an issue).

Well, as usual, I fell on my feet! After six months I was put into a mangagement trainee programme. Then one day my boss came out and said to me: "Paul, you have to get a qualification. We aren't going to give you any time off to study, money or other help. There are only two courses open to you. Become an ACIS or a barristor. We don't need a barristor. So guess what course I chose! These days ACIS is a post grad degree accepted throughout the British Commonwealth and Asia. I'm not sure of its status these days, but once it was considered higher than an MBA. Well, it was basically a six year apprenticeship (and a hell of a lot of study - law, finance, accounting, taxation, statistics, HR, office design etc) - but it took me eight years to get my professional qualification (by the time I was 26yo, I now had four kids). Well, at nearly 28yo I had the piece of paper and I changed jobs and then a few months later a bidding war started. Within eight months, I ended up back at my original company, with double the salary, company car, expense accounts, and a secretary...

That was my downfall! Here I am at 28yo, very successful in the business world. Linda (my ex wife) was a full on, fanatical JW. Apart from financing my family I had no existence! No self worth! And as happens so often in business, I fell in love with my secretary, and Linda & I seperated. A couple of years ago, I explained to Linda my circumstance at the time - that until Liz came along, I was so miserable I contemplated suicide (no exageration). At heart I was so very, very, lonely. Thirty years on, Linda understood and apologised...which sought of set me aback. nb: Linda and I are still friends, we have too much past between us to be otherwise, and to this day we, as neccessary take care of each other, we just can't live together...

Well that was 1981/82. Linda and I were seperated for about eight months. Then via extreme family preassure we got back together and for nearly another ten years Linda gave me hell! In the period we were seperated there were a couple of sleeze bag JWs that attempted to hit on Linda. I forgot to mention she was a beautiful woman, a man magnet. Anyway, umpteen years later this guy, supposedly our family friend, declared his love for my wife and she sent him running (I, and so many others had warned her, it was so obvious). Anyway, his wife chucked a fizzy, reported Linda to the elders, and all hell broke loose. Linda is incredibly strong willed. She'd done nothing wrong! Told them to get stuffed and exited the JWs. Then the seven spirits got stuck into her and Linda and I departed matrimony.

Umpteen years later my youngest son encountered Leukemia, and after umpteen years of treatment he died a month short of his 22nd birthday. Then a year later my second eldest son committed suicide (he was a drug addict). A few months before I had been retrenched. So I thought stuff it! And instead of re-entering secular life, I've lived the life of a hermit - albeit I live in relative comfort not wanting for anything and do have a social existence when I want one

My little house is in the middle of the city. Albeit, I'm on a battle axe block, about 30m from the road. It is very peaceful, and should I want, I can sit in the sun and just think. But I am not an ascetic! I admit I am anti-social, I hate crowds. I go to the shops only out of necessity, and these days couldn't be bothered to socialise (but I can if I want to - I use to teach street Latin dance, which I still enjoy). But I'm not anti-communal. I've got two spare bedrooms and currently have living with me half a family (of 9) who are currently homeless. In my RCC viewpoint, having received charis from the Father, it is my duty to express charis when I am able...

As for theology, it has been a pursuit for most of my adult life. Back in the 1970s/80s I carried out correspondence with a lecturer in Greek at Moore College (Sydney Uni) and the head of school at Berean Bilble College (Burwood). It is funny, what you and I might share in a day, back then, the three way conversation, often enough took a month via snail mail...

There is a lot to my life I have concealed, for instance I forgot to mention that I abandoned my corporate life (big mistake) and ended up a system specialist in the computer industry, which is where I ended up mentoring grads & potential MBAs...

Later
Paul

[apostoli]

Looking for a narrative that will persuade Muslims and JW's seems destined for loss...

The first trick is getting them to listen. There is a presbyterian guy down here, sponsored by some baptist group that is distributing the Quran in English along with the Holy Zabur in English (our book of Psalms). Lots of Muslims around here. Now this guy was a missionary in Turkey, and had been exiled a couple of times, now he can't return there, so he has brought his missionary activities back to home. Seems strange, but think about it. Now we have 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation Oz Muslims, most of which cannot read Arabic, but who remain Muslim as a tradition. I don't know whether you have read the Quran, but trust me there is a lot in there we as Christians can find in common to start a conversation. The big ticket item is "What needs God of a Son?. To which you can reply "What needs God of a Prophet? Well, might not be the best counter argument, but trust me, it gets them thinking...

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Paul, thank-you for the bio...

I am glad that you are still married and living separately from the woman you divorced for incompatibility... It is amazing to me - For I never married - How many marriages survive as non-marriage partnerships, where the romance goes, and the intimacy, yet the commitment abides, and the respect and appreciation... Because you are still together when apart, I see you as still married, and for a guy who scorns monasticism, you are sure living a monkish life! fwiw, I do too, only more deliberately...

I do alone, and I do together, and apart and joined, and it is all one to me, for I am alone when immersed in relationships, and I am in intimate relationship when I am alone... I see someone after 25 years, and pick it up as if it were yesterday, and the one I saw but yesterday as if I have not seen them in forever... And we are a lot alike, I think, for we both put up with a lot from those we love, and God help those who love us! Yet we remember those we love, and keep true to them, however that may end up turning out...

We have the same elevational challenges, though you are perhaps less challenged than I by a quarter inch... I have a lot of fun calling short people shortzo's, and demanding of big guys to hold a ladder for me to climb up it and smack 'em... But then, I get high s'mileage out of practically zero miles...

It sounds like you are still lonely, but have gotten more used to it, and give yourself just enough social contact to keep reminded that it doesn't really resolve there [in contact]... Having that 1/2 family under your roof is doubtless working its magic... Desperate lonliness and suicidal thoughts are no strangers to me, but belong to a long ago past - I don't know how to be lonely anymore... If I were to be placed in a hole in the ground with no human contact for 20 years now, I would still not be lonely - Not that I would survive 20 years, mind you - But I am just so inwardly focused that outward circumstances are just that...

But this I would like to share with you... IF Christianity is not a Spiritual Quest, outwardly in the world, and inwardly within one's soul, then it is not worthwhile... It is an heroic journey of the Heart unto the Kingdom of Heaven of Which there is no end... In the face of all the tribulations the world can offer, which are scorned, and in the face of all our inner fears and demonic challenges against goodness and truth and what is right...

If a person asks me if they should become a Christian, THAT is the question I ask them - A gut-check question - Are you willing to forsake everything for what is God's? Are you willing to say this? "I want what is true and right and good and I don't care what is costs me - I will do only what is good and true and right no matter what..." Christ said that we must "count the cost of discipleship"... And indeed, our life IS the cost, that we gain HIS Life... I mean, it is a screaming "deal" - We give nothing and gain everything - We give our denial of self in this life of death, and we gain the Life of God in the death of that denial... [The mortification of the flesh] It is NOT about being a good guy, or a nice person, or a helpful one, or a generous one, or a Bible-obedient one who does good deeds for others... Those things are all but MEANS to the attainment of the Kingdom... To the acquisition of the Holy Spirit... The Holy Oil of the wise virgins, which the foolish virgins had to go out of the doorway to purchase, but now it is too late...

We gain our souls in repentance, and throw them away in self indulgence...

Your early years with American sailors and the sins of providing them guide services is fairly tame by the standards I have known... Which is why I cannot disciple the path I took for others... I did not even know I was ON a quest... I had simply made a quiet little commitment within myself at age 5 to at least be true to myself, which I then forgot that I ever made for the next 30 years or so, and God kept me to it, keeping Himself concealed from me in the process... So I went RADICALLY prodigal in search of the truth and healing I sought within myself... No one should take that path... And there was only death at the end of it... And then God...

And that is what the monk does, and the Christian in his quest... Except not with the sins of the prodigal... Dare I say that yours sounds almost 'normal' as a life to me? Some salt and pepper, to be sure, and an occassional pickle and spice, but normally so, except for that desperate loneliness and depression, which we both started out with... I used to ask, as a 13 year old: "Why should a person choose to live, and not choose to not live?" And I did not get why people would scoff at the question, and why it was not burning in their souls...

'Nuff fer now...

God bless you, Paul Apostoli...

Arsenios

[apostoli]

Hello George,

Before I respond to your post, may I ask your career direction? My speciality was in system design. And it is a hobby of mine. In any one day, I might examine the complexities of sewerage disposal & treatment, waste disposal, recycling (water & waste), traffic flow, people flow, innovation in building materials and other complexities. As a hobby, I'm currently designing a city (Heh! I know, I need to get a life!)

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Hello George,

Before I respond to your post, may I ask your career direction?

I failed at several career attempts - I was such a messed up kid, and then adult... I was going to be a wild-life manager-conservationist, then a boat-builder, and then a philosophy professor, and all these dreams died... I ended up, in my quest for financial continence, becoming a locksmith, for it solved my financial needs, and permitted me keep working past retirement, if my myopic eyes and hands kept working, and so far, they have... So I am a self-employed locksmith in a small-town community, serving several smaller towns nearby, and I have more work than I can handle, and an undeserved reputation as a very good locksmith... In fact, I am but average, with good social skills, in that I enjoy my customers and love them, and don't charge what I could if I wanted to smell bad...

My speciality was in system design. And it is a hobby of mine. In any one day, I might examine the complexities of sewerage disposal & treatment, waste disposal, recycling (water & waste), traffic flow, people flow, innovation in building materials and other complexities. As a hobby, I'm currently designing a city (Heh! I ksnow, I need to get a life!)

Now THIS, finally, is a VERY embarrassing confession on your part... Look - Systems guys get themselves into this kind of black hole a lot, OK? They start out on some spider-webbian fantasy, and start visualizing themselves into sub-system after sub-system, and the inter-relatednesses of each to the others and to the whole, and the systemazitaion of those relationships into ones more efficient and perhaps even more conducive to peace etc... And then, as society evolves, and innovations intrude, and threats arise, additional things are needed which themselves need to be systematized, and there is no end to the irresistability of the magnetic field of the black hole of hobbydom you have created, and you will find yourself resenting having to earn a living when such very important, and even time sensitive matters are requiring such immediate attention...

When what you need is prayer...

You need to learn to pray...

And then you need to learn how to pray...

You want to be praying as you pass from this world...

And not making last minute systemic adjustments...

And you do not yet know how to pray...

And the time is short...

I am 68 and am just now beginning to learn how to pray...

"Hear O Israel..."

Arsenios