Things some guy noticed about Calvinism and Islam

[nrajeff]

David Bennett doesn't seem to like Calvinism much. I guess that's why he is trying to show similarities between it and Islam, which he presumably doesn't like much either. He says:

"..it is astounding to me how many of the verses from the Qur’an and how many of arguments
Muslim theologians and commentaries use sound identical to those used by Calvinists to rationalize the doctrine of predestination. My guess is that if you removed the flowery language and substituted certain words such as Allah in many of the quotes from the Qur’an or Muslim commentaries with the word God that the statements would be indistinguishable from statements on doctrine from not just the Reformers of John Calvin’s day but also indistinguishable from those in modern Reformed Theology like John Piper, R.C. Sproul and others."

http://www.freewill-predestination.com/islam.html

Then he lists selections from Islamic teachings, and compares them with selections from writings of Calvin, Spurgeon, et al, to show similarities.

2 questions:

1. What do you think of the validity of Bennett's claims?
2. What valid conclusions should be made from comparisons between teachings of certain Christian churches and Islam?

[KingsGambit]

[Raphael]

The fine folk over at Triablogue just addressed this: http://triablogue.blogspot.co.nz/201...m-islamic.html

Triablogue

A popular Arminian tactic is to preemptively discredit Calvinism by associating Calvinism with Islam. I’ll make a few observations:

i) Islam is a Judeo-Christian heresy, parasitic on Muhammad’s (mis-)understanding of the Bible, as well as free-floating theological traditions then in circulation. Because it borrows so heavily from Christianity and Judaism, it’s not surprising that you can find parallels between Islam and Christianity.

For instance, both Islam and Arminianism believe in a divine Creator and Judge. By that yardstick, Arminian theism is Islamic.

ii) Likewise, Islam has parallel debates involving freedom and determinism. If Asharites are analogous to Calvinists, then Mutazilites are analogous to Arminians. As such, the comparison cuts both ways.

iii) Arminians try to preemptively discredit Calvinism by claiming that both Calvinism and Islam subscribe to predestination. As I just pointed out, that’s a double-edged sword. But it also oversimplifies the issue. Some distinctions and definitions are in order.

© source where applicable

Steve hays continues into more detail, but the main gist is that there are differences to what Calvinsts understand about Predestination and what Muslims understand about it. He links to Ansering Islam's information about Muslim ideas on Predestination here: http://www.answering-islam.org/Index...stination.html

Over at Alpha and Omega Ministries there are some articles answering, from a Reformed (i.e. Calvinist) standpoint, the Muslim ideas of predestination:
Predestination in Islam: The Doctrine Stated
Predestination in Islam: A Reformed Critique
Calvindude gives a pretty good intro to what the Calvinistic understanding of predestination is here: http://calvindude.com/dude/2012/04/0...-is-calvinism/

[nrajeff]

Thanks for adding that info, Raphael.

[Raphael]

Thanks for adding that info, Raphael.

No worries.

And if you think the debates on Mormonism here get a little heated, you should see some of the more spectacular ones between Calvinists and Arminians (gets very heated....from both sides)

[nrajeff]

No worries.

And if you think the debates on Mormonism here get a little heated, you should see some of the more spectacular ones between Calvinists and Arminians (gets very heated....from both sides)

I don't doubt you. I would think about participating, from an Arminian-leaning POV, if the heated debates here didn't take up all my free time.

[Sparko]

Why did you put this in the LDS section?

[rogue06]

Why did you put this in the LDS section?

Whatchyoutalkinbout?
whatchu_talkin_bout_willis.jpg

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[Cerebrum123]

The fine folk over at Triablogue just addressed this: http://triablogue.blogspot.co.nz/201...m-islamic.html

Triablogue

A popular Arminian tactic is to preemptively discredit Calvinism by associating Calvinism with Islam. I’ll make a few observations:

i) Islam is a Judeo-Christian heresy, parasitic on Muhammad’s (mis-)understanding of the Bible, as well as free-floating theological traditions then in circulation. Because it borrows so heavily from Christianity and Judaism, it’s not surprising that you can find parallels between Islam and Christianity.

For instance, both Islam and Arminianism believe in a divine Creator and Judge. By that yardstick, Arminian theism is Islamic.

ii) Likewise, Islam has parallel debates involving freedom and determinism. If Asharites are analogous to Calvinists, then Mutazilites are analogous to Arminians. As such, the comparison cuts both ways.

iii) Arminians try to preemptively discredit Calvinism by claiming that both Calvinism and Islam subscribe to predestination. As I just pointed out, that’s a double-edged sword. But it also oversimplifies the issue. Some distinctions and definitions are in order.

© source where applicable

Steve hays continues into more detail, but the main gist is that there are differences to what Calvinsts understand about Predestination and what Muslims understand about it. He links to Ansering Islam's information about Muslim ideas on Predestination here: http://www.answering-islam.org/Index...stination.html

Over at Alpha and Omega Ministries there are some articles answering, from a Reformed (i.e. Calvinist) standpoint, the Muslim ideas of predestination:
Predestination in Islam: The Doctrine Stated
Predestination in Islam: A Reformed Critique
Calvindude gives a pretty good intro to what the Calvinistic understanding of predestination is here: http://calvindude.com/dude/2012/04/0...-is-calvinism/

I haven't gotten to read all of it, but this part caught my eye.

i) Islam is a Judeo-Christian heresy, parasitic on Muhammad’s (mis-)understanding of the Bible, as well as free-floating theological traditions then in circulation. Because it borrows so heavily from Christianity and Judaism, it’s not surprising that you can find parallels between Islam and Christianity.

The problem is that Islam has more in common with other pagan religions, and the only thing it really get from the Judeo-Christian source is a few stories from the Bible both OT and NT. Since many of these stories are more recognizable, Islam gets more associated with the first 2, but it has just as much in common with other pagan religions. Such as the belief in "jinns" the "circumambulation" of the Ka'aba, and many other religions rituals involved. Not to mention the black stone, and running between the 2 hills Safa and Marwa.
Otherwise, he seems to have gotten a lot of stuff right, but I still need to look at it in a little more depth.

[Cerebrum123]

Why did you put this in the LDS section?

He put it here, because I compared LDS and Islam in another thread. To me, I was just seeing a great deal of similarities between these false worldviews.

[Cow Poke]

I don't doubt you. I would think about participating, from an Arminian-leaning POV, if the heated debates here didn't take up all my free time.

Try shedding more light and less heat.

[Raphael]

The problem is that Islam has more in common with other pagan religions, and the only thing it really get from the Judeo-Christian source is a few stories from the Bible both OT and NT. Since many of these stories are more recognizable, Islam gets more associated with the first 2, but it has just as much in common with other pagan religions. Such as the belief in "jinns" the "circumambulation" of the Ka'aba, and many other religions rituals involved. Not to mention the black stone, and running between the 2 hills Safa and Marwa.
Otherwise, he seems to have gotten a lot of stuff right, but I still need to look at it in a little more depth.

I think Steve's point was that Mohammed got started because he was reacting to a local heresy in his region (that the Trinity included Mary rather than the Holy Spirit).

And, as you mention, he seems pulled in a fair number of local pagan beliefs while he was chucking out the Trinity completely.

All which ties into my estimation that Mohammed's "angelic" encounters were of demonic origin.

I still wonder at the one where he reckons if anyone falls asleep during prayer that the devil will come and pee in his ear.

[Cerebrum123]

I think Steve's point was that Mohammed got started because he was reacting to a local heresy in his region (that the Trinity included Mary rather than the Holy Spirit).

And, as you mention, he seems pulled in a fair number of local pagan beliefs while he was chucking out the Trinity completely.

All which ties into my estimation that Mohammed's "angelic" encounters were of demonic origin.

I still wonder at the one where he reckons if anyone falls asleep during prayer that the devil will come and pee in his ear.

I understood his point, but having done some research on Islam over the years, I felt that it wasn't quite accurate. Plus there are a LOT of people who compare Islam to Judaism and Christianity, and conclude that since Islam has some things stolen from both, then they are all somehow basically the same, and the more people see things like the above, the more they will think that all 3 are basically the same. I have dealt with a Hindu who thought that the 3 were the source of all evil in this world, and it was because of his mistaken assumption that the three are basically the same.

I DEFINITELY agree with you on the origin of Mohammed's "revelations".

What about the one where Satan sleeps in your nose, and in the morning you must flush him out by squirting water up in there?

[Raphael]

I understood his point, but having done some research on Islam over the years, I felt that it wasn't quite accurate.

I don't think he was going for complete accuracy. (don't forget he was rebutting a not well thought out attack on Calvinism)

Plus there are a LOT of people who compare Islam to Judaism and Christianity, and conclude that since Islam has some things stolen from both, then they are all somehow basically the same, and the more people see things like the above, the more they will think that all 3 are basically the same.

Yeah, but as we know that's because people are stupid. And prefer soundbites to actual thought. I've encountered people who think the same. And frankly those who do think that really have no understanding of any of the three. (as I'm sure you will agree)

I have dealt with a Hindu who thought that the 3 were the source of all evil in this world, and it was because of his mistaken assumption that the three are basically the same.

Ravi notes in one of his talks (can't remember the exact one at the moment) that when a Hindu gatecrashed a religion conference in the US he attacked them on how Christianity and Islam were the source of all the violence etc. Seems they are still in that mindset.

I DEFINITELY agree with you on the origin of Mohammed's "revelations".

Which is why I think that the other religion that you were comparing in your thread shares a similar origin.

What about the one where Satan sleeps in your nose, and in the morning you must flush him out by squirting water up in there?

I guess he really hated it when people snored.