Romney pays surprise visit to Solyndra

[Cow Poke]

No, I did not make up a quote. Did you see any quotation marks?

Ah, now you're hiding behind quotation marks?

All I did was put into words what the campaign managers quote implied which was that Romney continuously lied throughout the campaign in order to win the primary and that now that the primary is over he can "like an etch-a-sketch" erase all that and begin again.

Nope. THIS is what you actually said....

not to mention his own campaign manager, you know, the etch-a-sketch guy, who admitted that lying is Romney's main campaign strategy for winning the nomination.

Romney's campaign manager made NO SUCH ADMISSION. You totally made that up.

So please stop lying.

Show me where I lied, Jimmy. I provided your exact quote.

No, I did not flat out lie about what someone else said,

You claimed that the campaign manger ADMITTED (your word) that lying is Romney's main campaign strategy for winning the nomination. No such admission was made. Totally false.

you are flat out lying about what I said. I didn't quote anybody.

This is a quote of EXACTLY what you said, Jimmy ----

not to mention his own campaign manager, you know, the etch-a-sketch guy, who admitted that lying is Romney's main campaign strategy for winning the nomination.

No such admission was made.

I merely pointed out the fact that the campaign manager admitted that Romneys strategy for winning was to lie.

What a weasel!

But thank you for finally agreeing with me that in your honest opinion Romney is a liar.

I didn't agree with you -- I stated my own opinion, unlike you, hiding behind a FALSE statement like a little coward.

No, but apparently you do, unless you made an honest mistake in believing that I made up a quote.

Here's what you said, Jimmy....

not to mention his own campaign manager, you know, the etch-a-sketch guy, who admitted that lying is Romney's main campaign strategy for winning the nomination.

The campaign manager made no such admission. You think the lack of quotation marks changes that you falsely accused the campaign manager of saying something he did not actually say?

Weasel.

[Cow Poke]

How bout let's try this, Jimmy... how bout you provide the ACTUAL quote from the campaign manager that most closely matches what you claim he "admitted"?

[The Moonshield]

Romney is not only a liar, but he is also a hypocrite.

I can't say that I disagree, but if you honestly think that Obama is any better (at least to any substantial degree), then your deluding yourself.

Consider their Politifact and Washington Post "Fact Checker" ratings:

Obama's Negative Politifact Ratings:

44 "Mostly False"
57 "False"
5 "Pants on Fire"
12 "Full Flops"

Romney's Negative Politifact Ratings:

21 "Mostly False"
20 "False"
13 "Pants on Fire"
3 "Full Flops"

Obama's "Fact Checker" Ratings:

3 "4 Pinocchio" ratings
9 "3 Pinocchio" ratings
19 "2 Pinocchio" ratings
20 "1 Pinocchio" ratings

Romney's "Fact Checker" Ratings:

4 "4 Pinocchio" ratings
7 "3 Pinocchio" ratings
17 "2 Pinocchio" ratings
9 "1 Pinocchio" ratings

Both Obama and Romney won a "2011 Biggest Pinocchio Award" for dishonesty.

Obviously these two sources are not the ultimate authority on the matter of deception in politics, nor are their assessments always flawless, but they (along with other fact checkers such as factcheck.com) are generally pretty reliable, and they paint a rather clear picture: both men are liars who say an awful lot of blatantly false things, as both men care about getting (re)elected above all else. Dishonesty, partisan rhetoric, "flip flopping," pandering to voters, hypocrisy, etc., etc.; they are both guilty on every count.

[JimL]

Ah, now you're hiding behind quotation marks?



Nope. THIS is what you actually said....


Romney's campaign manager made NO SUCH ADMISSION. You totally made that up.



Show me where I lied, Jimmy. I provided your exact quote.



You claimed that the campaign manger ADMITTED (your word) that lying is Romney's main campaign strategy for winning the nomination. No such admission was made. Totally false.



This is a quote of EXACTLY what you said, Jimmy ----


No such admission was made.



What a weasel!



I didn't agree with you -- I stated my own opinion, unlike you, hiding behind a FALSE statement like a little coward.



Here's what you said, Jimmy....


The campaign manager made no such admission. You think the lack of quotation marks changes that you falsely accused the campaign manager of saying something he did not actually say?

Weasel.

Cow Poke, what are you brain dead? The campaign manager stating that Romney can erase all that he said in the primary and start over ""is an admission." Guess I was right, it needs be spoon fed to you and still you can't get it. Republican brain syndrome I guess!

[Cow Poke]

Cow Poke, what are you brain dead?

If I were, I would not be able to type, would I?

The campaign manager stating that Romney can erase all that he said in the primary and start over ""is an admission."

Yeah, just not the one you claimed.

Guess I was right, it needs be spoon fed to you and still you can't get it. Republican brain syndrome I guess!

Such a drama queen. And so wrong.

[Jaecp]

Moonshield,

Why did you just give us raw numbers? Raw Numbers that were out of context, at that. The context being, well, the totality of statements made.

If we look at the percentages it tells a very different story.

http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast....-them-all.html

obamaromney lies.png

So it looks like your comparison,

Obama's Negative Politifact Ratings:

44 "Mostly False"
57 "False"
5 "Pants on Fire"
12 "Full Flops"

Romney's Negative Politifact Ratings:

21 "Mostly False"
20 "False"
13 "Pants on Fire"
3 "Full Flops"

Put it in context, we see a very different story.

What's with the partisan cherry picking?

[Cow Poke]

Moonshield,

Why did you just give us raw numbers? Raw Numbers that were out of context, at that. The context being, well, the totality of statements made.

If we look at the percentages it tells a very different story.

http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast....-them-all.html

obamaromney lies.png

So it looks like your comparison,



Put it in context, we see a very different story.

What's with the partisan cherry picking?

It still looks like they both need a spankin.

[Ansgar Seraph]

Part of the problem with that is that Obama and Romney have been operating in two different spheres. The likelihood is that Romney's percentage of "Pants on Fire" will go down if he gets into office. A good comparison would be Romney '12 campaign vs. Obama '08 campaign.

But seeing as how you're referencing Sullivan's site, we can definitely agree that Romney has told some whoppers lately.

—Sam

[Cow Poke]

Part of the problem with that is that Obama and Romney have been operating in two different spheres. The likelihood is that Romney's percentage of "Pants on Fire" will go down if he gets into office. A good comparison would be Romney '12 campaign vs. Obama '08 campaign.

But seeing as how you're referencing Sullivan's site, we can definitely agree that Romney has told some whoppers lately.

—Sam

I ABSOLUTELY want to CATEGORICALLY DENY what you said!











Unfortunately, I can't.

[Ansgar Seraph]

I ABSOLUTELY want to CATEGORICALLY DENY what you said!











Unfortunately, I can't.

Sorry, CP. I was spending too much linking and your post slid in between mine and Jaecp's.

[Jaecp]

It still looks like they both need a spankin.

Sure, politicians lie,

My position is just that Romney does it alot more than any major ones I can thin of and isn't that good at it.

Part of the problem with that is that Obama and Romney have been operating in two different spheres. The likelihood is that Romney's percentage of "Pants on Fire" will go down if he gets into office. A good comparison would be Romney '12 campaign vs. Obama '08 campaign.

But seeing as how you're referencing Sullivan's site, we can definitely agree that Romney has told some whoppers lately.

—Sam

That's certainly valid.

I haven't use Sullivans site much, actually, followed a link from a blogger I follow. I remembered this thread and the "look, Obama is wrong more than Romney" thing and was, at the time, too busy/apathetic to do the legwork that would show it to be an abuse of numbers.

Thing is, Romney still comes off to me as one of the least honest politicians I have ever encountered. Like with that maddow clip I shared last month, the dude lies... cavalierly, it seems. He has 13 pants on fire to obama's 5, and yet, blatant lies are a fairly large amount of what they've checked on. I know its not a random sample, that politifact checks stuff that makes the news, so a random sample of noteworthy things said or whatever.

Heh, I just got that each word is a separate link when is scrolled up into the quote box and went huh?

I'm not sure if people have made direct comparisons so the 08 campaign. The issue I have with '08 Obama and '12 Obama is that he isn't the far left progressive I, and millions of other Americans, wanted him to be, not that his basic ability to speak the truth seems out of order.

I dunno Sam, they just seem like very different people when it comes to fighting with the truth.

[Ansgar Seraph]

I dunno Sam, they just seem like very different people when it comes to fighting with the truth.

No question. And even a comparison between '08 Obama and '12 Romney will tilt to Obama, from what I've seen. It's just a more accurate way to measure.

I just got done making a point about Romney on Facebook about this: the man lies — nothing new there. What is different is just how brazenly he lies. Conservatives think that Obama lies all the time and liberals think that the GOP heads lie all the time — that because each side thinks there is some nuance that Obama or the GOP knows but just isn't saying because it would crack their veneer of "truth." And, for the most part, each side can lay pretty equal claim to that higher ground. Romney is different, though. His repetitive lies aren't about missing nuance, they are just flat-out untrue. Out of those linked five, the only one that requires an appeal to nuance is the auto bailout . . . and there one only need point out that if Romney thinks private capital could have rescued the auto industry without the government aid, he is woefully misinformed about the very industry that he says gives him the economic chops to run the country. All the other linked lies are just bald-faced, cynical lies. He says them because he knows that he can get away with telling people a falsehood, that most of them won't know about military options for Iran or won't remember that Obama had a super majority in only one Congressional house — and only had that for ~26 weeks.

Romney will make a fairly effective president if he gets the office. But he's a soulless candidate and a deal with the devil is just that.

—Sam

[The Moonshield]

You're right, Jaecp; my post was misleading. It made it look like the clear winner in the dishonesty department (at least according to Politifacts) is Obama, which wasn't really my intention, nor was it the real point of my post. If you consider every single Politifact rating and compare percentages, it definitely leans towards Romney being the worst offender.

But establishing "who is truly the objectively worse person; Obama or Romney?" was not really the point. JimL was criticizing Romney for being dishonest, which is something that he's done quite often on this forum, and yet Obama seems to get a free pass despite numerous well-documented examples of dishonesty, hypocrisy, etc.

Going by the post I was responding to as well some of JimL's past posts, he seems to think that Obama is a good, honest individual, cut from a wholly different cloth than the likes of those dishonest money-loving scumbag Republicans such as Mitt Romney; but 44 mostly false statements, 57 flat-out false statements, 5 "pants on fire" lies, and a large number of Pinocchio's including a place on Fact Checker's "2011 Biggest Pinocchio's" list (and lets not forget other sources such as factcheck.org who have a number of their own articles detailing examples of Obama's dishonesty) is not the hallmark of a good, honest individual with high moral standards and a love for the truth, and that was what I was getting at.

I think mostly I've just been reading waaaaay too many political blogs and articles (as well as the comment sections of said blogs/articles) lately and am getting increasingly tired of this whole "lets complain endlessly about people/groups on the 'other side' doing bad things while simultaneously giving people/groups on 'our side' a free pass for doing the exact same things!" nonsense that seems to permeate throughout every aspect of political discourse, and JimL's post was a launching-point for me to express my annoyance.

Of course, it would be a blatant example of the very same hypocrisy and double-standard usage that I'm decrying now to pretend like I myself haven't been guilty of this very thing in the past (even the not-so-distant past), because I have, and I'm sorry for it.

[JimL]

"Who wants to put money in a solar company when a government puts a half a billion into one of its choice?” Romney asked, suggesting that investors and entrepreneurs would be less likely to found their own companies if they believe the government would help a competitor. “They don’t understand how the free economy works."

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...a-jobs-record/

Obama really doesn't understand how a free market system works. This is proof.

You've yet to answer my point OC. You are arguing against Obama's policy of government investment in start-ups and yet supporting Romney who had the same policies as governor of Massachusetts. He invested 1.5 million of state taxpayer money into Konarka, a solar start-up which just went bankrupt. Konarka also recieved 20 million from the D.O.E. during the Bush administration in 2007. I guess those Reublicans just don't really understand how the free market system works huh? Those are the kind of blatant lies and hypocritical statements I am referring to.

[Darth Executor]

You've yet to answer my point OC. You are arguing against Obama's policy of government investment in start-ups and yet supporting Romney who had the same policies as governor of Massachusetts. He invested 1.5 million of state taxpayer money into Konarka, a solar start-up which just went bankrupt.

The stench of desperation is a sweet cologne. Romney gave them 1.5 million... 9 years ago. Now they go bankrupt 8 years later under a democratic governor who gave them more than 3 times that money and it's somehow Romney's fault. It's like you get dumber with every post.