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Luke 1:43Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
43 How could this happen to me, that the mother of my LordLord
43 How could this happen to me, that the mother of my LordLord
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OK, I am trying to decide if Lord in Luke 1:43 can be translated as God, not just a title of respect. Catholics say that Elizabeth is saying Mary is the mother of God, using Luke 1:43 to prove it.Originally posted by Sparko View Post
BTW: I'm not very good at this and that is why I need help.Comment
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The Greek word is the same Greek word κυριος kurios used both of God and of men.Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
It is my understand it is being used referring to Christ in His incarnation, in Him being a man, in a distinction from Him being God. Christ, of course, being both the man and God.
Psalm 110:1,
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
1 Corinthians 8:6,
. . . But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by Him. . . .
1 Timothy 2:5,
. . . For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; . . .. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJVComment
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Do you think Luke 1:43 supports the Catholic position that this verse says Mary is the mother of God?Originally posted by 37818 View PostComment
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They mean that:Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
1. Jesus is the incarnation of God
2. Mary is Jesus' mother
so therefore, she is technically the mother of (the incarnation) of God the Son.
It doesn't mean she is the creator of God or anything like that.
so in Luke 1:43, the word "Lord" refers to Jesus, who is God the Son, so indirectly it is referring to God. Just like when you pray "My Lord, blah blah blah" when you are saying "Lord" you are referring to God.
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It is important to know what Elizabeth meant by "Lord" at that time.Originally posted by Sparko View Post
Even though we know now that Jesus is God, they didn't know it then. They were not expecting the Messiah to be God.
So, if John 20:28 uses the same word for "Lord" as Luke 1:43, Thomas must have used a different word for "God." Theos?
If so, then in order for Luke 1:43 to mean God, (mother of God) the same word would have been used -- Theos.
Otherwise, Thomas is saying "My God and my God."
John Reece used to take pity on me for some of my questions!Comment
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The point is contestable.Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
o kurios mou kai o theos mou (my lord and my God) - your surmise is correct.So, if John 20:28 uses the same word for "Lord" as Luke 1:43, Thomas must have used a different word for "God." Theos?
Kurios translates the Hebrew "YHVH" (Jehovah) among other words.If so, then in order for Luke 1:43 to mean God, (mother of God) the same word would have been used -- Theos.
No. Kurios in that context does not mean God.Otherwise, Thomas is saying "My God and my God."
Identity of Christ is important. Identity of Mary, not so much. Hebrews chapter 9 and Philippians 2: 1 - 11 will explain well enough the identity of Christ. (though note: the translations of Ephesians 2:6 are sub-optimal)John Reece used to take pity on me for some of my questions!
"kurios" acknowledges the person spoken of as a superior. An adult acknowledging an as yet unborn child as her superior doesn't incontestably show that the unborn child is God, but it does say that there is something more than usually significant about that child.
Sparko's reply in post#6 is more than adequate.Last edited by tabibito; 07-11-2017, 09:44 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
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well if "Lord" in verse 43 wasn't indirectly referring to God, then who was "Lord" referring to in verse 45?
43 Why should this happen to me, to have the mother of my Lord visit me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb jumped for joy. 45 How blessed is this woman who believed that what the Lord
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There you go. One verse by itself would not be enough to establish the matter, but in conjunction with others, it becomes cut and dried.
Just as John 1:1 standing alone won't establish that Jesus was God, nor even the Word come to that. It takes more than the one verse to show that he was incontestably both.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛Comment
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What did the Lord tell her that would be fulfilled?Originally posted by Sparko View Post
Go back and see:
30 Then the angel told her:
Do not be afraid, Mary,
for you have found favor with God.
31 Now listen:
You will conceive and give birth to a son,
and you will call His name Jesus.
32 He will be great
and will be called the Son of the Most High,
and the Lord God will give Him
the throne of His father David.
33 He will reign over the house of Jacob forever,
and His kingdom will have no end.
These verses say that Jesus would be the Messiah.
It says nothing about Jesus being the second person of the Trinity.
http://classic.studylight.org/com/bn...erse=43#Lu1_43
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Verse 43. And whence is this to me? An expression of humility. Why is it that the mother of my Lord {q} should come to me, as if to honour me?
Mother of my Lord. The word Lord sometimes denotes divinity, and sometimes superior, master, teacher, or governor. It was given by the Jews to their expected Messiah; but whether they understood it as denoting divinity cannot now be ascertained. It is clear only that Elisabeth used it as denoting great dignity and honour.
Note: John 13:13
John 13:13Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
13 You call Me Teacher and Lord. This is well said, for I am.
So, are we to understand that Jesus is calling Himself God in this verse? No.Comment
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To understand verse Luke 1:43, you need to understand what Zacharias and Elizabeth understood.Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
See also Zacharias' prophecy:
John is going before the Lord, the God of Israel (v. 16-17), "the face of the Lord" (v. 76). Does that help?Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologistComment
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My understanding, no. It refers to Him being Lord in regard to His humanity.Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
But Catholics do think it refers to His deity.
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/on...-mother-of-god. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJVComment
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I think we can safely say that Mary is the mother of God the Son.Originally posted by 37818 View Post
Saying that Mary is the Mother of God implies that she is the mother of the Father and the Holy Spirit since God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
I took my question to a person who teaches Greek and this is what he said:
Often "my lord" just means "the honored person to whom I'm speaking" or "you, sir." In this case, that isn't the meaning. The speaker is addressing Mary, the mother of Jesus. He means that Jesus would be his lord or ruler. The text reads:
καὶ πόθεν μοι τοῦτο ἵνα ἔλθῃ ἡ μήτηρ τοῦ κυρίου μου πρὸς ἐμέ;
- Luke 1:43 (SBLGNT)
The word for "lord" is part of a genitive phrase. The whole phrase is ἡ μήτηρ τοῦ κυρίου μου "the mother of my lord." It is the same word that is used at least hundreds of times for Jesus in the NT. It's normally used in a slave-master relationship, but is a general term for someone that you serve.
I asked him if Elizabeth is saying that Mary is the mother of God and he replied:
"If she meant that, why wouldn't she say "the mother of my god" (ἡ μήτηρ τοῦ θεοῦ μου)?"Comment
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