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This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.

This is not the section for debates between theists and atheists. While a theistic viewpoint is not required for discussion in this area, discussion does presuppose a respect for the integrity of the Biblical text (or the willingness to accept such a presupposition for discussion purposes) and a respect for the integrity of the faith of others and a lack of an agenda to undermine the faith of others.

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Luke 1:43

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    and who is "the LORD?"
    I thought you knew? God by His Name. The self Existent one.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      I don't think those verses say what you want them to say; they utterly fail to address your underlined bit, which is the very thing you're seeking to prove.
      What do you think I was "seeking to prove?"

      Did the Word become flesh (Jn. 1:14)?
      Precisely. The Word was made flesh. What was born of Mary was flesh. The Word having been made fully human. (ref also John 1:3 regarding the Word.)
      John 1:3,
      All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.



      Was the Son of God born of the seed of David (Rom. 1:1-4)?
      It does not say that. It says Jesus Christ our Lord was made of the seed of David according to the flesh. And that Son of God was declared the Son by His resurrection (see Psalm 2:7).
      Romans 1:4,
      . . . And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: . . .

      The Son of God was the Son of God before He was born the man. He always was the Son of God (Proverbs 30:4).

      What was born of Mary was the man, not God. (Acts 17:28; 2 Chronicles 2:6; Jeremiah 23:24.)
      I have little desire to continue this conversation; we've made our positions clear, and further argument is unlikely to budge either of us.
      What ever you want to do. Truth still matters.
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        It does not say that. It says Jesus Christ our Lord was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.
        You are incorrect. The NKJV literally says "born of the seed of David after the flesh." The NET agrees that this is literally what the Greek says.
        Truth still matters.
        Indeed. Why, then, are you ignoring clear statements in scripture in order to twist less clear statements to support your contention? That is not honest biblical interpretation. It is a clear sign that your personal beliefs are driving your reading of the scriptures, and not vice versa.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • #49
          John 7:42 42 ουχι η γραφη ειπεν οτι εκ του σπερματος δαυιδ και απο βηθλεεμ της κωμης οπου ην δαυιδ ο χριστος ερχεται

          it's an interesting statement.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            I thought you knew? God by His Name. The self Existent one.
            So if Mary gave birth to the Christ the Lord, who is God, who did Mary give birth to?

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              You are incorrect. The NKJV literally says "born of the seed of David after the flesh." The NET agrees that this is literally what the Greek says.
              Romans 1:3, . . . 4c,
              . . . περι του υιου αυτου του γενομενου εκ σπερματος δαβιδ κατα σαρκα . . .
              . . . ιησου χριστου του κυριου ημων . . . .
              Scripture Verse: Romans 1:3, New King James Version


              . . . concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, . . .

              © Copyright Original Source


              γενομενου
              NKJV = "was born"
              KJV = "was made"

              Indeed. Why, then, are you ignoring clear statements in scripture in order to twist less clear statements to support your contention? That is not honest biblical interpretation. It is a clear sign that your personal beliefs are driving your reading of the scriptures, and not vice versa.
              What clear statement of scripture have I ignored? What was it that I twisted? How did I twist it?
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                So if Mary gave birth to the Christ the Lord, who is God, who did Mary give birth to?
                Mary gave birth to the man, the Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. God was never born. The deity of Christ is not at issue.
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  Mary gave birth to the man, the Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. God was never born. The deity of Christ is not at issue.
                  You just said she gave birth to the Christ and the Christ is the Lord, who is God.

                  You want to separate the man from God as if the Son was a ghost who possessed the man. Like OBP said, that is nestorianism.

                  No one is saying Mary literally created God by giving birth to Jesus. derp.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    You just said she gave birth to the Christ and the Christ is the Lord, who is God.

                    You want to separate the man from God as if the Son was a ghost who possessed the man. Like OBP said, that is nestorianism.

                    No one is saying Mary literally created God by giving birth to Jesus. derp.
                    I did not say Christ who is also Lord means God (Acts 2:36; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Ephesians 4:5-6).

                    The Christ is both God and man (Ephesians 5:5). Nowhere does the holy scripture teach Mary gave birth to God when she gave birth to the man who is the Christ. God did not change, the Word changed (John 1:14) becoming flesh. And the Word was always God and still is (Hebrews 1:3; etc). The Word being God (John 1:1; Malachi 3:6) is not what changed, the Word being with God is how He changed (John 1:2).
                    Last edited by 37818; 07-18-2017, 11:42 AM.
                    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      I did not say Christ who is also Lord means God (Acts 2:36; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Ephesians 4:5-6).
                      so you don't think the Christ the Lord is God?

                      The Christ is both God and man (Ephesians 5:5). Nowhere does the holy scripture teach Mary gave birth to God when she gave birth to the man who is the Christ. God did not change, the Word changed (John 1:14) becoming flesh. And the Word was always God and still is (Hebrews 1:3; etc). The Word being God (John 1:1; Malachi 3:6) is not what changed, the Word being with God is how He changed (John 1:2).
                      Sounds like you know you are wrong and are trying to deflect. You want to separate Jesus from the Son while claiming you are not.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        so you don't think the Christ the Lord is God?
                        You are not hearing. understanding the view. Christ is both the man and God. As the man, Christ is also Lord. Thomas called Him both "My Lord and My God" (John 20:28).


                        Sounds like you know you are wrong and are trying to deflect. You want to separate Jesus from the Son while claiming you are not.
                        No. You do not want to hear the view. It is one thing not to agree, it is another to refuse to hear it. The Son of God was the Son of God before the incarnation to be the Christ.
                        Last edited by 37818; 07-18-2017, 08:46 PM.
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Here is the task, is there any reference in the NT where Jesus is called Lord where being called Lord can only mean that He is God?

                          The deity of Jesus being the Christ is not at issue.
                          The Trinity is not at issue.

                          It is my understanding that Jesus being the one Lord in the NT has to do with His incarnation and exultation by God (Acts 2:36; 1 Corinthians 8;6; 1 Corinthians 15:24-28).
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            Here is the task, is there any reference in the NT where Jesus is called Lord where being called Lord can only mean that He is God?

                            The deity of Jesus being the Christ is not at issue.
                            The Trinity is not at issue.

                            It is my understanding that Jesus being the one Lord in the NT has to do with His incarnation and exultation by God (Acts 2:36; 1 Corinthians 8;6; 1 Corinthians 15:24-28).
                            In short - you're saying that Jesus of Nazareth had been God, and would be God after his resurrection ... but he sort of temporarily retired from being God for the duration and became a man.
                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.

                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              You are not hearing. understanding the view. Christ is both the man and God. As the man, Christ is also Lord. Thomas called Him both "My Lord and My God" (John 20:28).


                              No. You do not want to hear the view. It is one thing not to agree, it is another to refuse to hear it. The Son of God was the Son of God before the incarnation to be the Christ.
                              yes the Son existed before the incarnation. He added flesh to himself. Which was born. The Son was born. The Son is God. Thus the Catholics say "Mary Mother of God"

                              You want to say both that the Man and the Son are one being, and also separate them so that only the Man was born. Can't have it both ways.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                yes the Son existed before the incarnation. He added flesh to himself. Which was born. The Son was born. The Son is God. Thus the Catholics say "Mary Mother of God"

                                You want to say both that the Man and the Son are one being, and also separate them so that only the Man was born. Can't have it both ways.
                                Remember that he also holds the view that Jesus' human nature was not added to himself. Rather he holds the unorthodox view that Jesus had two natures before the incarnation, a divine nature and a placeholder nature that turned into a human nature at his incarnation.

                                Comment

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