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Thread: Luke 1:43

  1. #11
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    well if "Lord" in verse 43 wasn't indirectly referring to God, then who was "Lord" referring to in verse 45?

    43 Why should this happen to me, to have the mother of my Lord visit me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb jumped for joy. 45 How blessed is this woman who believed that what the Lord told her would be fulfilled!”
    What did the Lord tell her that would be fulfilled?

    Go back and see:

    30 Then the angel told her:

    Do not be afraid, Mary,
    for you have found favor with God.
    31 Now listen:
    You will conceive and give birth to a son,
    and you will call His name Jesus.
    32 He will be great
    and will be called the Son of the Most High,

    and the Lord God will give Him
    the throne of His father David.
    33 He will reign over the house of Jacob forever,
    and His kingdom will have no end.


    These verses say that Jesus would be the Messiah.

    It says nothing about Jesus being the second person of the Trinity.

    http://classic.studylight.org/com/bn...erse=43#Lu1_43

    Clip:

    Verse 43. And whence is this to me? An expression of humility. Why is it that the mother of my Lord {q} should come to me, as if to honour me?

    Mother of my Lord. The word Lord sometimes denotes divinity, and sometimes superior, master, teacher, or governor. It was given by the Jews to their expected Messiah; but whether they understood it as denoting divinity cannot now be ascertained. It is clear only that Elisabeth used it as denoting great dignity and honour.

    Note: John 13:13

    John 13:13Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

    13 You call Me Teacher and Lord. This is well said, for I am.

    So, are we to understand that Jesus is calling Himself God in this verse? No.

  2. #12
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    What did the Lord tell her that would be fulfilled?

    Go back and see:

    30 Then the angel told her:

    Do not be afraid, Mary,
    for you have found favor with God.
    31 Now listen:
    You will conceive and give birth to a son,
    and you will call His name Jesus.
    32 He will be great
    and will be called the Son of the Most High,

    and the Lord God will give Him
    the throne of His father David.
    33 He will reign over the house of Jacob forever,
    and His kingdom will have no end.


    These verses say that Jesus would be the Messiah.

    It says nothing about Jesus being the second person of the Trinity.

    http://classic.studylight.org/com/bn...erse=43#Lu1_43

    Clip:

    Verse 43. And whence is this to me? An expression of humility. Why is it that the mother of my Lord {q} should come to me, as if to honour me?

    Mother of my Lord. The word Lord sometimes denotes divinity, and sometimes superior, master, teacher, or governor. It was given by the Jews to their expected Messiah; but whether they understood it as denoting divinity cannot now be ascertained. It is clear only that Elisabeth used it as denoting great dignity and honour.

    Note: John 13:13

    John 13:13Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

    13 You call Me Teacher and Lord. This is well said, for I am.

    So, are we to understand that Jesus is calling Himself God in this verse? No.

    sigh.

  3. #13
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    What did the Lord tell her that would be fulfilled?

    Go back and see:

    30 Then the angel told her:

    Do not be afraid, Mary,
    for you have found favor with God.
    31 Now listen:
    You will conceive and give birth to a son,
    and you will call His name Jesus.
    32 He will be great
    and will be called the Son of the Most High,

    and the Lord God will give Him
    the throne of His father David.
    33 He will reign over the house of Jacob forever,
    and His kingdom will have no end.


    These verses say that Jesus would be the Messiah.

    It says nothing about Jesus being the second person of the Trinity.

    http://classic.studylight.org/com/bn...erse=43#Lu1_43

    Clip:

    Verse 43. And whence is this to me? An expression of humility. Why is it that the mother of my Lord {q} should come to me, as if to honour me?

    Mother of my Lord. The word Lord sometimes denotes divinity, and sometimes superior, master, teacher, or governor. It was given by the Jews to their expected Messiah; but whether they understood it as denoting divinity cannot now be ascertained. It is clear only that Elisabeth used it as denoting great dignity and honour.

    Note: John 13:13

    John 13:13Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

    13 You call Me Teacher and Lord. This is well said, for I am.

    So, are we to understand that Jesus is calling Himself God in this verse? No.
    To understand verse Luke 1:43, you need to understand what Zacharias and Elizabeth understood.

    Source: Luke 1:13-17 NKJV

    13 But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your prayer is heard; and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. 14 And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb. 16 And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God. 17 He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, ‘to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,’ and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

    © Copyright Original Source


    See also Zacharias' prophecy:
    Source: Luke 1:68-79

    68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
    For He has visited and redeemed His people,
    69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
    In the house of His servant David,
    70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
    Who have been since the world began,
    71 That we should be saved from our enemies
    And from the hand of all who hate us,
    72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
    And to remember His holy covenant,
    73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
    74 To grant us that we,
    Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
    Might serve Him without fear,
    75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.
    76 “And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Highest;
    For you will go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways,
    77 To give knowledge of salvation to His people
    By the remission of their sins,
    78 Through the tender mercy of our God,
    With which the Dayspring from on high has visited us;
    79 To give light to those who sit in darkness and the shadow of death,
    To guide our feet into the way of peace.”

    © Copyright Original Source


    John is going before the Lord, the God of Israel (v. 16-17), "the face of the Lord" (v. 76). Does that help?
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

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  4. #14
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    Do you think Luke 1:43 supports the Catholic position that this verse says Mary is the mother of God?
    My understanding, no. It refers to Him being Lord in regard to His humanity.

    But Catholics do think it refers to His deity.
    https://www.catholic.com/magazine/on...-mother-of-god
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  5. #15
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    My understanding, no. It refers to Him being Lord in regard to His humanity.

    But Catholics do think it refers to His deity.
    https://www.catholic.com/magazine/on...-mother-of-god
    I think we can safely say that Mary is the mother of God the Son.

    Saying that Mary is the Mother of God implies that she is the mother of the Father and the Holy Spirit since God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

    I took my question to a person who teaches Greek and this is what he said:

    Often "my lord" just means "the honored person to whom I'm speaking" or "you, sir." In this case, that isn't the meaning. The speaker is addressing Mary, the mother of Jesus. He means that Jesus would be his lord or ruler. The text reads:

    καὶ πόθεν μοι τοῦτο ἵνα ἔλθῃ ἡ μήτηρ τοῦ κυρίου μου πρὸς ἐμέ;
    - Luke 1:43 (SBLGNT)

    The word for "lord" is part of a genitive phrase. The whole phrase is ἡ μήτηρ τοῦ κυρίου μου "the mother of my lord." It is the same word that is used at least hundreds of times for Jesus in the NT. It's normally used in a slave-master relationship, but is a general term for someone that you serve.

    I asked him if Elizabeth is saying that Mary is the mother of God and he replied:

    "If she meant that, why wouldn't she say "the mother of my god" (ἡ μήτηρ τοῦ θεοῦ μου)?"

  6. #16
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Often "my lord" just means "the honored person to whom I'm speaking" or "you, sir."
    The correct declension for that would be κυριε
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  7. #17
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    I think we can safely say that Mary is the mother of God the Son.

    Saying that Mary is the Mother of God implies that she is the mother of the Father and the Holy Spirit since God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

    I took my question to a person who teaches Greek and this is what he said:

    Often "my lord" just means "the honored person to whom I'm speaking" or "you, sir." In this case, that isn't the meaning. The speaker is addressing Mary, the mother of Jesus. He means that Jesus would be his lord or ruler. The text reads:

    καὶ πόθεν μοι τοῦτο ἵνα ἔλθῃ ἡ μήτηρ τοῦ κυρίου μου πρὸς ἐμέ;
    - Luke 1:43 (SBLGNT)

    The word for "lord" is part of a genitive phrase. The whole phrase is ἡ μήτηρ τοῦ κυρίου μου "the mother of my lord." It is the same word that is used at least hundreds of times for Jesus in the NT. It's normally used in a slave-master relationship, but is a general term for someone that you serve.

    I asked him if Elizabeth is saying that Mary is the mother of God and he replied:

    "If she meant that, why wouldn't she say "the mother of my god" (ἡ μήτηρ τοῦ θεοῦ μου)?"
    It's rather unlikely that she was speaking Greek. In the LXX, κυρίου is often substituted for the divine name, which was considered too holy to profane by speaking it.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  8. Amen tabibito amen'd this post.
  9. #18
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    It's rather unlikely that she was speaking Greek. In the LXX, κυρίου is often substituted for the divine name, which was considered too holy to profane by speaking it.
    In either case the Aramaic or Hebrew word for lord.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  10. #19
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    It's rather unlikely that she was speaking Greek. In the LXX, κυρίου is often substituted for the divine name, which was considered too holy to profane by speaking it.
    But in this case, Elizabeth was speaking of the Messiah. At that point in time, the concept of the Trinity was unknown.

    And, if Elizabeth meant Mary was the Mother of God, then surely she would have told her son and there is no evidence that John the Baptist thought Jesus was divine.

  11. #20
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    But in this case, Elizabeth was speaking of the Messiah. At that point in time, the concept of the Trinity was unknown.
    If Elizabeth had said hashem, as is a reasonable interpretation advanced by OBP, there would not (without support from other verses) be any real way to determine that the wording intended more than "man or woman of God" might. However, the claim that the trinity was an unknown concept is doubtful in the extreme. The Targums refer to the "Memra of God" which has a reasonably close confluence with the "Word" of John's gospel.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

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