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This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.

This is not the section for debates between theists and atheists. While a theistic viewpoint is not required for discussion in this area, discussion does presuppose a respect for the integrity of the Biblical text (or the willingness to accept such a presupposition for discussion purposes) and a respect for the integrity of the faith of others and a lack of an agenda to undermine the faith of others.

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Luke 1:43

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  • #16
    Often "my lord" just means "the honored person to whom I'm speaking" or "you, sir."
    The correct declension for that would be κυριε
    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.

    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
      I think we can safely say that Mary is the mother of God the Son.

      Saying that Mary is the Mother of God implies that she is the mother of the Father and the Holy Spirit since God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

      I took my question to a person who teaches Greek and this is what he said:

      Often "my lord" just means "the honored person to whom I'm speaking" or "you, sir." In this case, that isn't the meaning. The speaker is addressing Mary, the mother of Jesus. He means that Jesus would be his lord or ruler. The text reads:

      καὶ πόθεν μοι τοῦτο ἵνα ἔλθῃ ἡ μήτηρ τοῦ κυρίου μου πρὸς ἐμέ;
      - Luke 1:43 (SBLGNT)

      The word for "lord" is part of a genitive phrase. The whole phrase is ἡ μήτηρ τοῦ κυρίου μου "the mother of my lord." It is the same word that is used at least hundreds of times for Jesus in the NT. It's normally used in a slave-master relationship, but is a general term for someone that you serve.

      I asked him if Elizabeth is saying that Mary is the mother of God and he replied:

      "If she meant that, why wouldn't she say "the mother of my god" (ἡ μήτηρ τοῦ θεοῦ μου)?"
      It's rather unlikely that she was speaking Greek. In the LXX, κυρίου is often substituted for the divine name, which was considered too holy to profane by speaking it.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        It's rather unlikely that she was speaking Greek. In the LXX, κυρίου is often substituted for the divine name, which was considered too holy to profane by speaking it.
        In either case the Aramaic or Hebrew word for lord.
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          It's rather unlikely that she was speaking Greek. In the LXX, κυρίου is often substituted for the divine name, which was considered too holy to profane by speaking it.
          But in this case, Elizabeth was speaking of the Messiah. At that point in time, the concept of the Trinity was unknown.

          And, if Elizabeth meant Mary was the Mother of God, then surely she would have told her son and there is no evidence that John the Baptist thought Jesus was divine.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
            But in this case, Elizabeth was speaking of the Messiah. At that point in time, the concept of the Trinity was unknown.
            If Elizabeth had said hashem, as is a reasonable interpretation advanced by OBP, there would not (without support from other verses) be any real way to determine that the wording intended more than "man or woman of God" might. However, the claim that the trinity was an unknown concept is doubtful in the extreme. The Targums refer to the "Memra of God" which has a reasonably close confluence with the "Word" of John's gospel.
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.

            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
              But in this case, Elizabeth was speaking of the Messiah. At that point in time, the concept of the Trinity was unknown.

              And, if Elizabeth meant Mary was the Mother of God, then surely she would have told her son and there is no evidence that John the Baptist thought Jesus was divine.
              That didn't stop Thomas from calling Jesus "God" did it? The "trinity" is the explanation for what the Gospels reveal.

              And Elizabeth did know that her son would be the one making way for the Messiah. And Isaiah is pretty clear that the Messiah will be God.

              Isaiah 40:3 A voice of one calling: "In the desert prepare the way for the LORD; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God. … 9 You who bring good tidings to Zion, go up on a high mountain. You who bring good tidings to Jerusalem, lift up your voice with a shout, lift it up, do not be afraid; say to the towns of Judah, "Here is your God!" 10 See, the Sovereign LORD comes with power, and his arm rules for him. See, his reward is with him, and his recompense accompanies him.

              and don't forget what the angel told Mary:

              *Matthew 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "God with us."

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                But in this case, Elizabeth was speaking of the Messiah. At that point in time, the concept of the Trinity was unknown.

                And, if Elizabeth meant Mary was the Mother of God, then surely she would have told her son and there is no evidence that John the Baptist thought Jesus was divine.
                Did you even read my first post in the thread? Just wondering.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #23
                  If anyone is interested, here's the take on the subject from a few commentators,

                  Source: Luke: An Introduction and Commentary by Leon Morris

                  43-45. The use of the title my Lord shows that Elizabeth recognized that Mary's child would be the Messiah (cf. Ps. 110:1; 'Lord' is used of God twenty-five times in chs. 1 - 2; it is an exalted title). She goes on to explain that at Mary's greeting her own baby leaped for joy (the word means 'exultation') in her womb. It was this that enabled her to recognize Mary for what she was. She concludes with a further blessing of Mary. We should probably take her words to mean 'Blessed is she who believed, for there will be . . .' (the Greek is ambiguous, but 'for' seems better than 'that'). Elizabeth is affirming that the fulfillment will certainly take place, not saying that Mary believed it would.

                  We should not miss the absence of all jealousy in Elizabeth's attitude to Mary. The older woman, who had received such a signal blessing from the Lord, might well have tried to guard her position jealously. But in genuine humility she recognized the greater blessing God had given to Mary. A further point of interest is that John the Baptist did not recognize Jesus as Messiah until the baptism (Jn. 1:32f.). Apparently Elizabeth's recognition that he is Lord was inspired, but personal. John had to find it out for himself.

                  © Copyright Original Source



                  Source: The Gospel of Luke by Luke Timothy Johnson

                  43. mother of my Lord: This is Elizabeth's most dramatic statement, dropped almost casually. "Lord" is a title first of all for God (as already in Luke 1:6, 9, 11, 15, 16, 17, 25). Of Jesus, it is used most properly as a resurrection title (see Acts 1:21; 2:34-36; 4:26, 33; 8:16, etc.). But Luke, even more than Matthew, uses it for Jesus not only as a greeting but also as a title (see Luke 2:11; 7:13; 10:1; 11:39; 12:42; 17:6; 18:6; 19:8, 31; especially 24:3 and 34). At the very least, Elizabeth recognizes the infant as "master," but a deeper dimension is surely implied.

                  © Copyright Original Source



                  Source: Luke-Acts by Tremper Longman, David E. Garland

                  41-42 To speculate about how Mary's greeting caused the child to leap in Elizabeth's womb (v.41) would be to miss the unaffected beauty of this narrative in which the stirring of the unborn child becomes a joyful prelude to Elizabeth's being "filled with the Holy Spirit," who enlightened her about the identity of the child Mary was carrying (v.42).

                  43 Nowhere in the NT is Mary called "Mother of God." Deity is not confined to the person of Jesus (we may say, "Jesus is God," but not [all of] "God is Jesus"). She was, however, the mother of Jesus, the Messiah and Lord. In Luke, "Lord" (kyrios, GK 3261) is a frequently used title (95 out of 166 occurrences in the Synoptics; so Gaston, 76). Jesus is called "Lord" two other times in the Lukan birth narratives (1:76; 2:11).

                  © Copyright Original Source



                  Pretty sure these are all Protestant scholars though, and I imagine a Catholic or Orthodox scholar would come to other conclusions. I personally think it's a lot of hair splitting. It seems likely to me that Elizabeth said it in the sense of "Messiah", and not necessarily God the Son, but if she did mean God the Son, then that knowledge was provided her by the Holy Spirit.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                    If anyone is interested, here's the take on the subject from a few commentators,

                    Source: Luke: An Introduction and Commentary by Leon Morris

                    43-45. The use of the title my Lord shows that Elizabeth recognized that Mary's child would be the Messiah (cf. Ps. 110:1; 'Lord' is used of God twenty-five times in chs. 1 - 2; it is an exalted title). She goes on to explain that at Mary's greeting her own baby leaped for joy (the word means 'exultation') in her womb. It was this that enabled her to recognize Mary for what she was. She concludes with a further blessing of Mary. We should probably take her words to mean 'Blessed is she who believed, for there will be . . .' (the Greek is ambiguous, but 'for' seems better than 'that'). Elizabeth is affirming that the fulfillment will certainly take place, not saying that Mary believed it would.

                    We should not miss the absence of all jealousy in Elizabeth's attitude to Mary. The older woman, who had received such a signal blessing from the Lord, might well have tried to guard her position jealously. But in genuine humility she recognized the greater blessing God had given to Mary. A further point of interest is that John the Baptist did not recognize Jesus as Messiah until the baptism (Jn. 1:32f.). Apparently Elizabeth's recognition that he is Lord was inspired, but personal. John had to find it out for himself.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    Source: The Gospel of Luke by Luke Timothy Johnson

                    43. mother of my Lord: This is Elizabeth's most dramatic statement, dropped almost casually. "Lord" is a title first of all for God (as already in Luke 1:6, 9, 11, 15, 16, 17, 25). Of Jesus, it is used most properly as a resurrection title (see Acts 1:21; 2:34-36; 4:26, 33; 8:16, etc.). But Luke, even more than Matthew, uses it for Jesus not only as a greeting but also as a title (see Luke 2:11; 7:13; 10:1; 11:39; 12:42; 17:6; 18:6; 19:8, 31; especially 24:3 and 34). At the very least, Elizabeth recognizes the infant as "master," but a deeper dimension is surely implied.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    Source: Luke-Acts by Tremper Longman, David E. Garland

                    41-42 To speculate about how Mary's greeting caused the child to leap in Elizabeth's womb (v.41) would be to miss the unaffected beauty of this narrative in which the stirring of the unborn child becomes a joyful prelude to Elizabeth's being "filled with the Holy Spirit," who enlightened her about the identity of the child Mary was carrying (v.42).

                    43 Nowhere in the NT is Mary called "Mother of God." Deity is not confined to the person of Jesus (we may say, "Jesus is God," but not [all of] "God is Jesus"). She was, however, the mother of Jesus, the Messiah and Lord. In Luke, "Lord" (kyrios, GK 3261) is a frequently used title (95 out of 166 occurrences in the Synoptics; so Gaston, 76). Jesus is called "Lord" two other times in the Lukan birth narratives (1:76; 2:11).

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    Pretty sure these are all Protestant scholars though, and I imagine a Catholic or Orthodox scholar would come to other conclusions. I personally think it's a lot of hair splitting. It seems likely to me that Elizabeth said it in the sense of "Messiah", and not necessarily God the Son, but if she did mean God the Son, then that knowledge was provided her by the Holy Spirit.
                    I have no issue with any of those comments. She was speaking under the influence of the Holy Spirit, not from personal knowledge.

                    "Theotokos" is more precisely translated "God-bearer".
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post

                      "Theotokos" is more precisely translated "God-bearer".
                      The concept is disputed.
                      https://www.gotquestions.org/Mary-mo...theotokos.html
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        ...by a latter day Nestorian.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I'm sorry, are some of you under the impression that Catholics literally believe that Mary is the mother of the Triune God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit?) and that they are too stupid to realize that God (all three persons) existed before Mary did?


                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                            ...by a latter day Nestorian.
                            Edited by a Moderator

                            Moderated By: Bill the Cat

                            Argument by Weblink is not allowed.

                            ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
                            Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

                            Last edited by Bill the Cat; 07-13-2017, 10:42 AM.
                            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Nestorius disagreed that Mary should be called "Theotokos"; instead, he thought she should be called "Christotokos" - exactly what your earlier link suggests.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                              sigpic
                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                                Nestorius disagreed that Mary should be called "Theotokos"; instead, he thought she should be called "Christotokos" - exactly what your earlier link suggests.
                                What is wrong with Jesus' mother being called "Christotokos," the Christ-bearer? And that she was.
                                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                                Comment

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