Page 3 of 10 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 92

Thread: Luke 1:43

  1. #21
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    32,326
    Amen (Given)
    2767
    Amen (Received)
    15959
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    But in this case, Elizabeth was speaking of the Messiah. At that point in time, the concept of the Trinity was unknown.

    And, if Elizabeth meant Mary was the Mother of God, then surely she would have told her son and there is no evidence that John the Baptist thought Jesus was divine.
    That didn't stop Thomas from calling Jesus "God" did it? The "trinity" is the explanation for what the Gospels reveal.

    And Elizabeth did know that her son would be the one making way for the Messiah. And Isaiah is pretty clear that the Messiah will be God.

    Isaiah 40:3 A voice of one calling: "In the desert prepare the way for the LORD; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God. 9 You who bring good tidings to Zion, go up on a high mountain. You who bring good tidings to Jerusalem, lift up your voice with a shout, lift it up, do not be afraid; say to the towns of Judah, "Here is your God!" 10 See, the Sovereign LORD comes with power, and his arm rules for him. See, his reward is with him, and his recompense accompanies him.

    and don't forget what the angel told Mary:

    *Matthew 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "God with us."

  2. #22
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Inside the beltway
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    13,779
    Amen (Given)
    4552
    Amen (Received)
    8061
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    But in this case, Elizabeth was speaking of the Messiah. At that point in time, the concept of the Trinity was unknown.

    And, if Elizabeth meant Mary was the Mother of God, then surely she would have told her son and there is no evidence that John the Baptist thought Jesus was divine.
    Did you even read my first post in the thread? Just wondering.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  3. #23
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    6,825
    Amen (Given)
    5831
    Amen (Received)
    5429
    If anyone is interested, here's the take on the subject from a few commentators,

    Source: Luke: An Introduction and Commentary by Leon Morris

    43-45. The use of the title my Lord shows that Elizabeth recognized that Mary's child would be the Messiah (cf. Ps. 110:1; 'Lord' is used of God twenty-five times in chs. 1 - 2; it is an exalted title). She goes on to explain that at Mary's greeting her own baby leaped for joy (the word means 'exultation') in her womb. It was this that enabled her to recognize Mary for what she was. She concludes with a further blessing of Mary. We should probably take her words to mean 'Blessed is she who believed, for there will be . . .' (the Greek is ambiguous, but 'for' seems better than 'that'). Elizabeth is affirming that the fulfillment will certainly take place, not saying that Mary believed it would.

    We should not miss the absence of all jealousy in Elizabeth's attitude to Mary. The older woman, who had received such a signal blessing from the Lord, might well have tried to guard her position jealously. But in genuine humility she recognized the greater blessing God had given to Mary. A further point of interest is that John the Baptist did not recognize Jesus as Messiah until the baptism (Jn. 1:32f.). Apparently Elizabeth's recognition that he is Lord was inspired, but personal. John had to find it out for himself.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Source: The Gospel of Luke by Luke Timothy Johnson

    43. mother of my Lord: This is Elizabeth's most dramatic statement, dropped almost casually. "Lord" is a title first of all for God (as already in Luke 1:6, 9, 11, 15, 16, 17, 25). Of Jesus, it is used most properly as a resurrection title (see Acts 1:21; 2:34-36; 4:26, 33; 8:16, etc.). But Luke, even more than Matthew, uses it for Jesus not only as a greeting but also as a title (see Luke 2:11; 7:13; 10:1; 11:39; 12:42; 17:6; 18:6; 19:8, 31; especially 24:3 and 34). At the very least, Elizabeth recognizes the infant as "master," but a deeper dimension is surely implied.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Source: Luke-Acts by Tremper Longman, David E. Garland

    41-42 To speculate about how Mary's greeting caused the child to leap in Elizabeth's womb (v.41) would be to miss the unaffected beauty of this narrative in which the stirring of the unborn child becomes a joyful prelude to Elizabeth's being "filled with the Holy Spirit," who enlightened her about the identity of the child Mary was carrying (v.42).

    43 Nowhere in the NT is Mary called "Mother of God." Deity is not confined to the person of Jesus (we may say, "Jesus is God," but not [all of] "God is Jesus"). She was, however, the mother of Jesus, the Messiah and Lord. In Luke, "Lord" (kyrios, GK 3261) is a frequently used title (95 out of 166 occurrences in the Synoptics; so Gaston, 76). Jesus is called "Lord" two other times in the Lukan birth narratives (1:76; 2:11).

    © Copyright Original Source



    Pretty sure these are all Protestant scholars though, and I imagine a Catholic or Orthodox scholar would come to other conclusions. I personally think it's a lot of hair splitting. It seems likely to me that Elizabeth said it in the sense of "Messiah", and not necessarily God the Son, but if she did mean God the Son, then that knowledge was provided her by the Holy Spirit.

  4. #24
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Inside the beltway
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    13,779
    Amen (Given)
    4552
    Amen (Received)
    8061
    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    If anyone is interested, here's the take on the subject from a few commentators,

    Source: Luke: An Introduction and Commentary by Leon Morris

    43-45. The use of the title my Lord shows that Elizabeth recognized that Mary's child would be the Messiah (cf. Ps. 110:1; 'Lord' is used of God twenty-five times in chs. 1 - 2; it is an exalted title). She goes on to explain that at Mary's greeting her own baby leaped for joy (the word means 'exultation') in her womb. It was this that enabled her to recognize Mary for what she was. She concludes with a further blessing of Mary. We should probably take her words to mean 'Blessed is she who believed, for there will be . . .' (the Greek is ambiguous, but 'for' seems better than 'that'). Elizabeth is affirming that the fulfillment will certainly take place, not saying that Mary believed it would.

    We should not miss the absence of all jealousy in Elizabeth's attitude to Mary. The older woman, who had received such a signal blessing from the Lord, might well have tried to guard her position jealously. But in genuine humility she recognized the greater blessing God had given to Mary. A further point of interest is that John the Baptist did not recognize Jesus as Messiah until the baptism (Jn. 1:32f.). Apparently Elizabeth's recognition that he is Lord was inspired, but personal. John had to find it out for himself.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Source: The Gospel of Luke by Luke Timothy Johnson

    43. mother of my Lord: This is Elizabeth's most dramatic statement, dropped almost casually. "Lord" is a title first of all for God (as already in Luke 1:6, 9, 11, 15, 16, 17, 25). Of Jesus, it is used most properly as a resurrection title (see Acts 1:21; 2:34-36; 4:26, 33; 8:16, etc.). But Luke, even more than Matthew, uses it for Jesus not only as a greeting but also as a title (see Luke 2:11; 7:13; 10:1; 11:39; 12:42; 17:6; 18:6; 19:8, 31; especially 24:3 and 34). At the very least, Elizabeth recognizes the infant as "master," but a deeper dimension is surely implied.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Source: Luke-Acts by Tremper Longman, David E. Garland

    41-42 To speculate about how Mary's greeting caused the child to leap in Elizabeth's womb (v.41) would be to miss the unaffected beauty of this narrative in which the stirring of the unborn child becomes a joyful prelude to Elizabeth's being "filled with the Holy Spirit," who enlightened her about the identity of the child Mary was carrying (v.42).

    43 Nowhere in the NT is Mary called "Mother of God." Deity is not confined to the person of Jesus (we may say, "Jesus is God," but not [all of] "God is Jesus"). She was, however, the mother of Jesus, the Messiah and Lord. In Luke, "Lord" (kyrios, GK 3261) is a frequently used title (95 out of 166 occurrences in the Synoptics; so Gaston, 76). Jesus is called "Lord" two other times in the Lukan birth narratives (1:76; 2:11).

    © Copyright Original Source



    Pretty sure these are all Protestant scholars though, and I imagine a Catholic or Orthodox scholar would come to other conclusions. I personally think it's a lot of hair splitting. It seems likely to me that Elizabeth said it in the sense of "Messiah", and not necessarily God the Son, but if she did mean God the Son, then that knowledge was provided her by the Holy Spirit.
    I have no issue with any of those comments. She was speaking under the influence of the Holy Spirit, not from personal knowledge.

    "Theotokos" is more precisely translated "God-bearer".
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  5. #25
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    So. California
    Faith
    Nontraditional Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    4,167
    Amen (Given)
    749
    Amen (Received)
    381
    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post

    "Theotokos" is more precisely translated "God-bearer".
    The concept is disputed.
    https://www.gotquestions.org/Mary-mo...theotokos.html
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  6. #26
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Inside the beltway
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    13,779
    Amen (Given)
    4552
    Amen (Received)
    8061
    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    ...by a latter day Nestorian.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  7. #27
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    32,326
    Amen (Given)
    2767
    Amen (Received)
    15959
    I'm sorry, are some of you under the impression that Catholics literally believe that Mary is the mother of the Triune God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit?) and that they are too stupid to realize that God (all three persons) existed before Mary did?


  8. #28
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    So. California
    Faith
    Nontraditional Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    4,167
    Amen (Given)
    749
    Amen (Received)
    381
    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    ...by a latter day Nestorian.
    Edited by a Moderator

    Moderated By: Bill the Cat

    Argument by Weblink is not allowed.

    ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
    Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

    Last edited by Bill the Cat; 07-13-2017 at 04:42 PM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  9. #29
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Inside the beltway
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    13,779
    Amen (Given)
    4552
    Amen (Received)
    8061
    Nestorius disagreed that Mary should be called "Theotokos"; instead, he thought she should be called "Christotokos" - exactly what your earlier link suggests.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  10. #30
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    So. California
    Faith
    Nontraditional Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    4,167
    Amen (Given)
    749
    Amen (Received)
    381
    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Nestorius disagreed that Mary should be called "Theotokos"; instead, he thought she should be called "Christotokos" - exactly what your earlier link suggests.
    What is wrong with Jesus' mother being called "Christotokos," the Christ-bearer? And that she was.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •