Fiction & Theodicies

[seanD]

Because that is evidently how the military has set things up for its recruits and conscriptees. However, there is nothing evident about an all-good, all-powerful, all-loving God who sets up evil as a means of ensuring discipline and strength. Such a notion, as I'm sure you can see, is wholly contradictory.



Romans 5:3-4, ESV: "Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope..."

That's all very well and fine. It's certainly a better disposition to uphold than some others in the face of evil. Nevertheless, your chosen pericope does nothing to answer to the presence of evil alongside the Christian assumptions of God's character. It simply addresses a helpful way of toiling while evil happens.

God didn't "set up" the evil. The evil was a result of the fall and disobedience of man and his ever fall and disobedience progression. Christian theology 101. The issue is why God doesn't stop this progression. The answer is Romans 5:3-4 and what I've been saying throughout this thread -- it benefits those who are obedient in the long run. It's really pretty basic stuff.

[seanD]

God didn't "set up" the evil. The evil was a result of the fall and disobedience of man and his ever fall and disobedience progression. Christian theology 101. The issue is why God doesn't stop this progression. The answer is Romans 5:3-4 and what I've been saying throughout this thread -- it benefits those who are obedient in the long run. It's really pretty basic stuff.

Let me rephrase this, lest this create a distraction and veer into a different issue. Forget the story of "the fall." We know mankind is flawed as per what see today and have seen throughout history. Whether that flaw is natural or spiritual is irrelevant. The majority of the evil in the world is caused by humans themselves not God, which was the point I was trying to make here.

[Kane]

God didn't "set up" the evil. The evil was a result of the fall and disobedience of man and his ever fall and disobedience progression.

So it's not God's issue at all? It is, in fact, completely removed from God's responsibility that he created a world where evil capers freely about? God is off the hook, and it's the devil who challenges us through adversity? So we should direct our energy to praying to the devil for deliverance from evil? God isn't responsible, right? Or is he?

And incidentally, the issue of moral evils (let's just remove natural disasters from the conversation, for the moment, please) is not equivalent to enduring adverse conditions. Hence my complete bafflement that you would pull in the military's training challenges as equivalent to God's creation suffering horrible evils: a challenge is not synonymous with evil; Navy Seal training/challenges are not the same as enduring childhood rape at the hands of grinning clergymen. Bootcamp isn't the same as genocidal maniacs killing your family line. I think you take my point. At least, I hope you do.

Christian theology 101. The issue is why God doesn't stop this progression. The answer is Romans 5:3-4 and what I've been saying throughout this thread -- it benefits those who are obedient in the long run. It's really pretty basic stuff.

The PoE isn't basic, if it's anything. And your two-time insistence that it is, speaks more to your disinterest in the subject than to your responsibility as a representative of the Christian God to answer to such a problem. Relying on The Fall simply regresses the question further: why did God create a situation where evil could take root? And how is God excused from the parameters of the creation he created just because recognising evil alongside an allegedly loving and good God makes us uncomfortable?

You have your work ahead of you. And it's not basic, if the historical philosophers have any merit to you.

[Kane]

Let me rephrase this, lest this create a distraction and veer into a different issue. Forget the story of "the fall." We know mankind is flawed as per what see today and have seen throughout history. Whether that flaw is natural or spiritual is irrelevant. The majority of the evil in the world is caused by humans themselves not God, which was the point I was trying to make here.

What in existence isn't perfect? And compared to what? Your idealisms? How are your ideas of what is perfect not simply an amplification of certain qualities that you prefer, or that you've been told you should prefer?

You say that we see humankind as flawed given what we see today, and in history. But compared to what? What is your plumbline?

And even if you believe that God doesn't create evil, that humans do, didn't God create the humans doing the evil? Didn't he create the conditions under which Adam and Eve operated to set evil loose in the world?

And if we're to take up the oft-touted Christian analogy of parental relationships: I, as a father, would certainly not assume that because one of my children hits my dog, therefore all children are evil dog-abusers. Nevertheless, in Christian theology, because Adam and Eve ate a spot of fruit they shouldn't have, all people are sinners and must endure unfettered evils; all people are God-abusers.

How can you debase yourself into believing such foolish nonsense? I ask that with all compassion because I consider myself as having been foolish for believing the same at one point in time.

[seanD]

So it's not God's issue at all? It is, in fact, completely removed from God's responsibility that he created a world where evil capers freely about? God is off the hook, and it's the devil who challenges us through adversity? So we should direct our energy to praying to the devil for deliverance from evil? God isn't responsible, right? Or is he?

And incidentally, the issue of moral evils (let's just remove natural disasters from the conversation, for the moment, please) is not equivalent to enduring adverse conditions. Hence my complete bafflement that you would pull in the military's training challenges as equivalent to God's creation suffering horrible evils: a challenge is not synonymous with evil; Navy Seal training/challenges are not the same as enduring childhood rape at the hands of grinning clergymen. Bootcamp isn't the same as genocidal maniacs killing your family line. I think you take my point. At least, I hope you do.



The PoE isn't basic, if it's anything. And your two-time insistence that it is, speaks more to your disinterest in the subject than to your responsibility as a representative of the Christian God to answer to such a problem. Relying on The Fall simply regresses the question further: why did God create a situation where evil could take root? And how is God excused from the parameters of the creation he created just because recognising evil alongside an allegedly loving and good God makes us uncomfortable?


You have your work ahead of you. And it's not basic, if the historical philosophers have any merit to you.

What in existence isn't perfect? And compared to what? Your idealisms? How are your ideas of what is perfect not simply an amplification of certain qualities that you prefer, or that you've been told you should prefer?

You say that we see humankind as flawed given what we see today, and in history. But compared to what? What is your plumbline?

And even if you believe that God doesn't create evil, that humans do, didn't God create the humans doing the evil? Didn't he create the conditions under which Adam and Eve operated to set evil loose in the world?

And if we're to take up the oft-touted Christian analogy of parental relationships: I, as a father, would certainly not assume that because one of my children hits my dog, therefore all children are evil dog-abusers. Nevertheless, in Christian theology, because Adam and Eve ate a spot of fruit they shouldn't have, all people are sinners and must endure unfettered evils; all people are God-abusers.

How can you debase yourself into believing such foolish nonsense? I ask that with all compassion because I consider myself as having been foolish for believing the same at one point in time.

Your reference to the Devil was irrelevant nonsense since I never brought the subject up, so I’ll just disregard it as anti-religious ranting. I was addressing the evil caused by humanity; our own doing (which I’m sure you already knew). And it IS basic to understand when you put the outrage and emotion about the subject aside. Even if you want to reject the explanation for evil, you still have to deal with the empirical evidence that humanity is flawed and bent towards evil and destruction (whatever the inherent cause is irrelevant), which I’m sure you won’t deny as you and other atheists keep bringing up examples of these evil situations in your posts in order to bolster your posts. The evil is the result of our disobedience and the continuance of that disobedience; in fact, the incontrovertible and oftentimes astonishing evil demonstrated throughout the history of man by man is a glaring testament to the fall of man (I often wonder how atheists and non-theists explain the existence of it in a natural context… but that’s a side issue). Nonetheless. stopping evil such as childhood rape at the hands of grinning clergymen is not possible under the circumstances. In order for God to stop all evil, he would have to either rule as a dictator and force everyone against their will to live according to a particular standard of righteousness and make the repercussions so extreme (a la the old covenant) that breaking the standard would be highly unfavorable (and thus atheists would accuse God of being a ruthless dictator), or simply wipe out the majority of the population and start over again (and thus the atheists would accuse God of being a sadist). Neither option is a viable one, obviously. Instead, he gave us the option to endure it and promises of guidance and comfort (in spite of the suffering, which is guaranteed) while going through it as long as we’re faithful and obedient… and in the end, the suffering will be the catalyst of something extraordinarily rewarding that will completely overshadow the present situation. That’s how Christian theology deals with the PoE problem, and even if you want to reject the legitimacy of the theology, the explanation as to why God allows it to go on couldn’t be anymore logical under the circumstances.

[Kane]

SeanD,

You want to chalk up my introduction of the devil in this conversation "irrelevant nonsense" because you didn't bring it up? Shall we, by that standard, simply sign off this thread altogether, and call it "irrelevant nonsense" because neither you nor I brought it up? What does it matter who brought what into the conversation? As long as what is written has bearing on the conversation -- which, in this case, it does -- who wrote it first is really unimportant.

In a sense, you're right: I am anti-religious. But I'm not participating in this conversation as a way of scoring points, or to rant. I'm simply attacking the Christian position on the PoE because it doesn't answer the question; in fact, it leaves more questions open than it closes. In that way, the issue is not basic. When I was in seminary training for an M. Div., I certainly didn't think the issue was basic. I still don't think the issue is basic when I contrast meta-narrative positions, or consider the naturalistic position in light of moral atrocities.

Evil is the result of disobedience? To what, God? Fine, let's regress even further then: demonstrate that God exists, and then we'll have something to gauge issues of obedience with. Until then, you're left with human agency and morality.

As regards the coming glories of those believe in your God, if it is true that God intends only to reward the obedient for enduring suffering, then he fully intends to make the obedient suffer now; that is sadism, as you pointed out. And if the disobedient are leftover for continued suffering, then God fully intends to be sadistic unto eternity. And since your God, as you allege, intends present sufferings for future glories, then your God is actively working against the happiness and enjoyment of his own creation and is, by your own logic, a malicious and capricious bully. Your God is the problem of evil.

[seanD]

SeanD,

You want to chalk up my introduction of the devil in this conversation "irrelevant nonsense" because you didn't bring it up? Shall we, by that standard, simply sign off this thread altogether, and call it "irrelevant nonsense" because neither you nor I brought it up? What does it matter who brought what into the conversation? As long as what is written has bearing on the conversation -- which, in this case, it does -- who wrote it first is really unimportant.

In a sense, you're right: I am anti-religious. But I'm not participating in this conversation as a way of scoring points, or to rant. I'm simply attacking the Christian position on the PoE because it doesn't answer the question; in fact, it leaves more questions open than it closes. In that way, the issue is not basic. When I was in seminary training for an M. Div., I certainly didn't think the issue was basic. I still don't think the issue is basic when I contrast meta-narrative positions, or consider the naturalistic position in light of moral atrocities.

Evil is the result of disobedience? To what, God? Fine, let's regress even further then: demonstrate that God exists, and then we'll have something to gauge issues of obedience with. Until then, you're left with human agency and morality.

As regards the coming glories of those believe in your God, if it is true that God intends only to reward the obedient for enduring suffering, then he fully intends to make the obedient suffer now; that is sadism, as you pointed out. And if the disobedient are leftover for continued suffering, then God fully intends to be sadistic unto eternity. And since your God, as you allege, intends present sufferings for future glories, then your God is actively working against the happiness and enjoyment of his own creation and is, by your own logic, a malicious and capricious bully. Your God is the problem of evil.

As I said before, when I enter into these discussions, I’m assuming the skeptic is at least hypothetically assuming the theology is true in order to have the discussion about the theology and for the Christian to explain their position. Otherwise, since you can no more prove it isn’t true than I can prove it is true, the discussion becomes utterly pointless. It’s question begging for both us. And you're just too emotionally wrapped up in this subject, Kane. You always were. The bitterness oozes from your post, and even though it's just an Internet post, it's easy to see it in comparison to others who take it a lot less personal (like Whag). In any event, the explanation I put fourth for PoE is simple to understand. The issue I think is that it just doesn't sit well for the atheist (especially an apostate with an axe to grind), which is the real issue. There is an answer, it's just that you don't like the answer.... which is cool.

[lilpixieofterror]

You have no way of demonstrating such a statement, so how can you state it as if it is true?

Because Kane, I have watched and seen how children turn out when their parents give them everything and do all of their desires for them. Likewise, I have also seen that over strict parents can cause equal problems too. My observations have shown me that parenting needs to be an act that has to be balanced in order to be good and effective. Too much freedom, kids run wild and too much restriction and kids will rebel against your rule. So since God is often illustrated as a parent, I take the same idea into mind and I bet the same thing would happen and plus, children often do not know what they need and parents (good parents at least) know what they need better than their children do. Watch Bruce Almightly and see the chaos that happened when Bruce decided to answer every bodies prayers. Why is it that we think we know better than an all knowing and all loving God?

[lilpixieofterror]

People training people to withstand horrible things is not parallel to a God that creates a world where people are condemned for exercising the free will he allegedly granted them, all the while remaining largely aloof when people pray for relief from their pains.

Why is it that we never thank God for something good in our lives, but we condemn him when something bad happens? My husband has JRA and if you know anything about it, it is a rather painful condition. Through him though I have learned, more than ever, to praise God regardless of how bad things in our life are going. If you don't praise God in the bad, you will not do it in the good, simple as that because my Bible says, "In this life, you will have trouble." It doesn't say you will not, it says you will, but it also goes on to say, "but take heart, I have overcome the world."

[Kane]

Because Kane, I have watched and seen how children turn out when their parents give them everything and do all of their desires for them. Likewise, I have also seen that over strict parents can cause equal problems too. My observations have shown me that parenting needs to be an act that has to be balanced in order to be good and effective. Too much freedom, kids run wild and too much restriction and kids will rebel against your rule.

So, your evidence is purely anecdotal and has nothing to do with actual evidence of a God intervening against evils and thus spoiling humanity. You simply draw a parallel between God and parents, humanity and children, and content yourself with that analogy despite any helpful standard of evidence.

So since God is often illustrated as a parent, I take the same idea into mind and I bet the same thing would happen and plus, children often do not know what they need and parents (good parents at least) know what they need better than their children do. Watch Bruce Almightly and see the chaos that happened when Bruce decided to answer every bodies prayers. Why is it that we think we know better than an all knowing and all loving God?

You have a top-down view of relationships between parents and children, which is the same way you view God and humanity. You are consistent with that, and not untypical. But not all parents operate in such a manner (myself included), which puts a stick in your wheel, so to speak.

Your last question pushes the regression back to "show me your God exists -- and has the qualities you claim he does -- and then we can attempt an answer. Until that point, I have no compulsion to follow you into such a malformed guilt-trip."

[Kane]

Why is it that we never thank God for something good in our lives, but we condemn him when something bad happens? My husband has JRA and if you know anything about it, it is a rather painful condition. Through him though I have learned, more than ever, to praise God regardless of how bad things in our life are going. If you don't praise God in the bad, you will not do it in the good, simple as that because my Bible says, "In this life, you will have trouble." It doesn't say you will not, it says you will, but it also goes on to say, "but take heart, I have overcome the world."

I'm happy that you live your faith out compassionately, and that you seek to be consistent with your holy writ. I'm not up-to-date with JRA, though I do recall you describing it once or twice. It sounds quite awful. Hopefully, a cure will come about and your partner can find some relief.

[lilpixieofterror]

So, your evidence is purely anecdotal and has nothing to do with actual evidence of a God intervening against evils and thus spoiling humanity. You simply draw a parallel between God and parents, humanity and children, and content yourself with that analogy despite any helpful standard of evidence.

I usually hear this whole 'anecdotal' thing when somebody can't refute what I said, so they think they can simply ignore it. Too bad this can be confirmed though psychology classes. Anyway, perhaps instead of whining for God to stop evil, maybe we should do it ourselves? Take a look at Hurricane Katrina. I hear so many atheists saying that God should have prevented it, but yet they ignore the fact we knew for how many years that the dam system couldn't stand a category 5 hurricane and we did nothing about it? Perhaps instead of whining about God not doing anything, perhaps we need to turn that mirror inwards and look at our own failures first because I can tell you why nobody bothered to update it, it is because many of the people it protected were poorer people. Again, perhaps instead of whining about how God will not feed our neighbors perhaps we should... feed our neighbors as he so commanded us to do?

You have a top-down view of relationships between parents and children, which is the same way you view God and humanity. You are consistent with that, and not untypical. But not all parents operate in such a manner (myself included), which puts a stick in your wheel, so to speak.

Not really because good parents do know their children far better than we do and you can't really be a friend with your kids (at least not until they are older). I've known a number of adults that try to be friends with their children instead of trying to be parents and well, it turns out horrible later on in life (one is dealing with a teenage daughter she tried to be friends with and well, it has pretty much gone horribly wrong). Even if our kids may not like it when you do something not so nice to them, it still has to be done.

Your last question pushes the regression back to "show me your God exists -- and has the qualities you claim he does -- and then we can attempt an answer. Until that point, I have no compulsion to follow you into such a malformed guilt-trip."

And yet, you have no problem with doing the same to Christians, but the second the question is turned back on you, you get all upset about it. Why? The movie illustrates a point quite well, if God answered all of our desires, the world would be in chaos. Can you imagine if 300,000 million people won the lotto? Can you imagine if everybody got just what they wished for? The funny thing is that again, I would think an all knowing God would know what we need better than we do, so why pretend as though we know better? Sure, you could say bad things are pointless and meaningless, but often times, it is the lowest points in our lives; we really find what we are made of. It is quite easy to be happy and content when things are going great, it is not so easy when they are not. You’re not the only one that has faced trials and struggles, I have faced plenty of myself and I do not go and blame God for them, but I take the words of Paul when he says,

“I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. I can do all this through him who gives me strength. “ Philippians 4:12-13, NIV

If you do not know peace when things are bad, you will not know it when things are good.

[lilpixieofterror]

I'm happy that you live your faith out compassionately, and that you seek to be consistent with your holy writ. I'm not up-to-date with JRA, though I do recall you describing it once or twice. It sounds quite awful. Hopefully, a cure will come about and your partner can find some relief.

Well Kane, in short JRA is caused by a hyper active immune system that attacks the joints and in some cases, the lungs or eyes. Anyway, he was told he would never live past 18 and we are getting ready to celibate his 25th birthday. Through God, all things are possible as that shows and if you do not learn to be content with nothing, you will not be content with everything.

[Kane]

I usually hear this whole 'anecdotal' thing when somebody can't refute what I said, so they think they can simply ignore it.

I haven't attempted to refute you. I've simply called the quality and evidence of your assertion into question. Demonstrate evidence for your claim that "God's intervention against evils would spoil humanity."

Too bad this can be confirmed though psychology classes.

I've taken a couple of psychology classes, and haven't come across the information you say would confirm your claim. Could you elaborate more, please?

Anyway, perhaps instead of whining for God to stop evil, maybe we should do it ourselves? Take a look at Hurricane Katrina. I hear so many atheists saying that God should have prevented it, but yet they ignore the fact we knew for how many years that the dam system couldn't stand a category 5 hurricane and we did nothing about it? Perhaps instead of whining about God not doing anything, perhaps we need to turn that mirror inwards and look at our own failures first because I can tell you why nobody bothered to update it, it is because many of the people it protected were poorer people. Again, perhaps instead of whining about how God will not feed our neighbors perhaps we should... feed our neighbors as he so commanded us to do?

You support my concern: God does not act to prevent evil. Humanity does. We're not entirely successful, and we certainly rack up a long list of intentional evils against each other, too. Nevertheless, where is God? I see people intervening. I don't see God stepping forward. That should tell you something.

Not really because good parents do know their children far better than we do and you can't really be a friend with your kids (at least not until they are older). I've known a number of adults that try to be friends with their children instead of trying to be parents and well, it turns out horrible later on in life (one is dealing with a teenage daughter she tried to be friends with and well, it has pretty much gone horribly wrong). Even if our kids may not like it when you do something not so nice to them, it still has to be done.

Why are you attempting to place God and parents on par with each other? I'm sure you're aware that, according to Christian theology, there is a vast chasm between the ambitions and capacities of human parents and the plenary competence of God. If your God cannot act to stop the flow of evil, then I'm left with a few conclusions:

1) He can't;
2) He won't (for whatever reason);
3) He is non-existent;
4) He is malicious and sadistic (not to mention a rotten cosmic daddy).

I vote #3.

[lilpixieofterror]

I haven't attempted to refute you. I've simply called the quality and evidence of your assertion into question. Demonstrate evidence for your claim that "God's intervention against evils would spoil humanity."

And all you got to do is attend a child psychology class or go and turn on the TV to see what happens when one spoils children. What 'evil' are we talking about God ending? The evil of people starving when we refuse to give them food? The evil of hurricanes in which we build in the path hurricanes travel and put cities in these zones and complain when they are wiped out? Or how we build in zones we know tsunami’s hit and then complain because they get hit? Perhaps if we were more careful with how we build things and did things for one another for the reason to help instead of the almighty dollar, the world would be a much better place? Why is it all God's fault that we refuse to listen to what he told us to do to start with?

I've taken a couple of psychology classes, and haven't come across the information you say would confirm your claim. Could you elaborate more, please?

So you have not come across the idea that a parent that doesn't discipline their children and simply takes care of their every need doesn't end up being some of the most spoiled brats around? Just Google 'spoiled children' and see the results you get, you end up with children that can't function and have serious emotional and behavioral issues. Why do you suppose that is?

You support my concern: God does not act to prevent evil. Humanity does. We're not entirely successful, and we certainly rack up a long list of intentional evils against each other, too. Nevertheless, where is God? I see people intervening. I don't see God stepping forward. That should tell you something.

Successful sure, if you ignore the millions starving to death all over the world, the easily preventable and curable diseases that people suffer and die from every single day, or the millions that are forced into slavery by human trafficking then yeah... we are quite successful. Let me ask you this one Kane, if we followed this:

James 2:14-17, NIV

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

would the world wouldn't be how it is currently?

Why are you attempting to place God and parents on par with each other? I'm sure you're aware that, according to Christian theology, there is a vast chasm between the ambitions and capacities of human parents and the plenary competence of God. If your God cannot act to stop the flow of evil, then I'm left with a few conclusions:

Since I do not believe God works that way nor is that the current goal of this world. Remember, Christians do not believe that our current situation is all there is, but believe this is just a tiny part of the picture, so even if one lives 100 years, what is 100 years compared to eternity?

1) He can't;

Which I don't believe, next.

2) He won't (for whatever reason);

That I would agree with, at least currently, but perhaps there might be a good reason for it?

3) He is non-existent;

If you are an atheist, sure.

4) He is malicious and sadistic (not to mention a rotten cosmic daddy).

This isn’t the God of Christianity.

I vote #3.

Too bad I'm not an atheist and vote for 2 instead. Perhaps you can explain why you pick 3 because I do think sean is right here. I think you are largely emotionally involved here to such a degree that it clouds your reasoning, plus if there is no God, why is evil or suffering wrong? Isn’t that just how things are and we should learn to just ‘deal with it’? The fact you think something is wrong here indicates a problem with the fundamental nature of how the world currently is, but how can there be such a problem if the world is all that exist? How can the fundamental nature of the world be wrong? Perhaps the reason you believe something is wrong with the world is because something really is wrong with the world?