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  • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
    What problem in the Roman Catholic Church are you accusing me of ducking???
    Several, claiming that celibacy is voluntary, and it is not 'voluntary' when one receives the calling to be an ordained priest within the Roman Church. The doors are closed to those who wish to be married and serve as a priest in the Roman Church. You keep bring up the voluntary notion of whether or not one voluntarily becomes an ordained priest. To one receiving the calling to serve, the desire is not a 'voluntary' choice.

    The other issue has been whether the Roman Church believes in Salvation out side the One True Church. The reality is the Roman Church defines the specific instance when Salvation is possible outside the Roman Church, and other then that it only acknowledges that the unknown {miraculous?) possible circumstances willful decisions in human hearts to choose the church like at the moment of death, and other possible exceptions known only to God.

    Another issue is whether the Roman Church is subject to change concerning the foundation doctrine and dogma of the Church. The answer is an emphatic no. Changes proposed in Vatican II do not represent foundation changes in the Roman Church. The changes for the most part are superficial changes in the diplomatic and ecmenical relationships to those outside the church.



    Actually again, my main problem remains as to whether the Roman Church reflects the claim of it being the Catholic. My conclusion is that it does not fulfill this claim.

    The bottom line is my problem with the Roman church is not with individual issues. I do not believe in picking and choosing to believe based on what shoes fit best for me personally, nor relying on what I have been taught when I was growing up in the church. The question is 'Does it represent the Universal within the possibly human constraints of understanding, as it claims to be 'Catholic.' My answer is an overwhelming no. Looking at the history of the Roman Church I find very human institutions struggling with a changing world outside the Church and not a Divinely guided Institution leading the world to a more Universal Spirituality closer to God reflecting the evolving diversity of human experience.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-24-2014, 10:18 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      Several, claiming that celibacy is voluntary, and it is not 'voluntary' when one receives the calling to be an ordained priest within the Roman Church. The doors are closed to those who wish to be married and serve as a priest in the Roman Church. You keep bring up the voluntary notion of whether or not one voluntarily becomes an ordained priest. To one receiving the calling to serve, the desire is not a 'voluntary' choice.
      You are misrepresenting my position. I have never denied that celibacy is mandatory for Roman Catholic priests, except for some exceptional situations And I am on record here as not being in favor of this situation. I think celibacy should be optional for diocesan priests and I think the issue of mandatory celibacy for priests is responsble for some serious problems in the church, all of which I have said publically. I have never ducked this issue; you are merely ignorant of my positions on this and, for some reasons, prefer to make unwarranted and false assumptions.

      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      The other issue has been whether the Roman Church believes in Salvation out side the One True Church. The reality is the Roman Church defines the specific instance when Salvation is possible outside the Roman Church, and other then that it only acknowledges that the unknown {miraculous?) possible circumstances willful decisions in human hearts to choose the church like at the moment of death, and other possible exceptions known only to God.
      Nor have I ever ducked this issue, as you should know. I have discussed this with you in detail in over 230 posts over three weeks period of time. To say that I have ducked this issue is ridiculous.

      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      Another issue is whether the Roman Church is subject to change concerning the foundation doctrine and dogma of the Church. The answer is an emphatic no. Changes proposed in Vatican II do not represent foundation changes in the Roman Church. The changes for the most part are superficial changes in the diplomatic and ecmenical relationships to those outside the church.
      Where have I ever ducked discussing this issue with you???

      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      Actually again, my main problem remains as to whether the Roman Church reflects the claim of it being the Catholic. My conclusion is that it does not fulfill this claim.

      The bottom line is my problem with the Roman church is not with individual issues. I do not believe in picking and choosing to believe based on what shoes fit best for me personally, nor relying on what I have been taught when I was growing up in the church. The question is 'Does it represent the Universal within the possibly human constraints of understanding, as it claims to be 'Catholic.' My answer is an overwhelming no. Looking at the history of the Roman Church I find very human institutions struggling with a changing world outside the Church and not a Divinely guided Institution leading the world to a more Universal Spirituality closer to God reflecting the evolving diversity of human experience.
      I do not recall this issue coming up between us in the past so, again, I think it is false to say I have ducked this issue. If fact, I agree whole-heartedly that the church is a very human institution struggling with a changing world outside the church. I know I have said as much on the old TWeb. Perhaps you should try to inform yourself about my positions rather than making false assumptions.
      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

      Comment


      • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
        I have never ever tried to deny or minimize the problems. Again I think you would be better served by the use of the term 'optional' rather than 'voluntary' as has been demonstrated by the fact that people have misunderstood your claim here. In other words, it is not optional if you wish to be a Roman Catholic priest in response to a perceived calling to be such, but the response to this calling and the seeking of ordination within the Roman Catholic Church is entirely voluntary.
        From the perspective of the believer receiving the calling motivation is not a voluntary decision on their part. It is an involuntary Divine calling to serve.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
          I do not recall this issue coming up between us in the past so, again, I think it is false to say I have ducked this issue. If fact, I agree whole-heartedly that the church is a very human institution struggling with a changing world outside the church. I know I have said as much on the old TWeb. Perhaps you should try to inform yourself about my positions rather than making false assumptions.
          This part of the post is a bottom line statement on why I do not consider the Roman Church an optional choice of belief, and did not intend it to be in reference to your ducking reality. Sorry for the miscommunication.

          Actually again, my main problem remains as to whether the Roman Church reflects the claim of it being the Catholic. My conclusion is that it does not fulfill this claim.

          The bottom line is my problem with the Roman church is not with individual issues. I do not believe in picking and choosing to believe based on what shoes fit best for me personally, nor relying on what I have been taught when I was growing up in the church. The question is 'Does it represent the Universal within the possibly human constraints of understanding, as it claims to be 'Catholic.' My answer is an overwhelming no. Looking at the history of the Roman Church I find very human institutions struggling with a changing world outside the Church and not a Divinely guided Institution leading the world to a more Universal Spirituality closer to God reflecting the evolving diversity of human experience.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            From the perspective of the believer receiving the calling motivation is not a voluntary decision on their part. It is an involuntary Divine calling to serve.
            But the response to this calling should be free and fully voluntary, without any sense of divine or human compulsion in my opinion and in accord with the commonly accepted theology of vocation and ministry in the church. Do you see why any sense of compulsion could be unhealthy? Do you also understand why the discernment of a vocation should also involve the larger community that one might feel called to serve?
            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

            Comment


            • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
              But the response to this calling should be free and fully voluntary, without any sense of divine or human compulsion in my opinion and in accord with the commonly accepted theology of vocation and ministry in the church. Do you see why any sense of compulsion could be unhealthy? Do you also understand why the discernment of a vocation should also involve the larger community that one might feel called to serve?
              I can go by my experience in Saint Francis College in Costa Rica when I considered becoming a priest in the Roman Church. When I first expressed an interest, they trained me to be an alter boy and added more Latin to my class schedule. and I entered into counseling to determine the sincerity of my desire to be a priest and serve. A significant part of this was centered around the theme was to search in my heart 'What does God (Jesus) want me to do?' The second part was the obligations of obedience to the Roman Church teaching, Doctrine and Dogma. The link was that IF I truly knew What God (Jesus) wanted me to do?' then strict obedience to the teachings of the Roman Church was the most important obligation.

              It was at this time Pope John became Pope and later Vatican II began to rumble through the church. It was naively welcomed in the USA, but in Latin America it sharply divided the Priesthood. It was then in my personal study I made a more concerted effort to study the Vatican II and the history of change (reform?) in the Roman Church in the 19th and 20th century. Liberation theology was also beginning to be controversial issue in the Roman Church in Latin America at that time.

              More to follow . . .
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                I can go by my experience in Saint Francis College in Costa Rica when I considered becoming a priest in the Roman Church. When I first expressed an interest, they trained me to be an alter boy and added more Latin to my class schedule. and I entered into counseling to determine the sincerity of my desire to be a priest and serve. A significant part of this was centered around the theme was to search in my heart 'What does God (Jesus) want me to do?' The second part was the obligations of obedience to the Roman Church teaching, Doctrine and Dogma. The link was that IF I truly knew What God (Jesus) wanted me to do?' then strict obedience to the teachings of the Roman Church was the most important obligation.

                It was at this time Pope John became Pope and later Vatican II began to rumble through the church. It was naively welcomed in the USA, but in Latin America it sharply divided the Priesthood. It was then in my personal study I made a more concerted effort to study the Vatican II and the history of change (reform?) in the Roman Church in the 19th and 20th century. Liberation theology was also beginning to be controversial issue in the Roman Church in Latin America at that time.

                More to follow . . .
                Note the two poles highlighted above: your desire and God's desire. Important to keep both of those poles active at all times. If at any point, you do not follow your own desire then you are entering into something nonvoluntary or compulsive. God's desire, his calling is always an invitation, a calling to which you are invited, asked to respond, but never required, constrained, or obligated to respond in a certain way. A priest, monsignor, seminary professor, bishop, archbishop, cardinal, or pope cannot order you to become a priest. Neither can God. Why would he, anyway? Would he want someone to dedicate themselves to a life of service against their will? What does that imply about one's image of God? He just wants worker bees performing tasks against their will? Obedience is not about following orders, but about listening to God speaking within yourself, the needs of your community, and deciding how you want to respond with your full self.

                I was a monk for several years because it was a communal and spiritual life of service that I explored as something that I thought would make me happy, and it did for the first few years. At first I assumed that I would naturally become a priest, but the more I thought about it, it was not the type of work I wanted to do. I was still devoted to the communal and spiritual life of service, but not as a priest. St Francis of Assisi, who founded the Franciscan order was himself not a priest. There is no requirement or obligation to be a priest. It can only be validly entered into freely.
                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                Comment


                • Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
                  Well, seeing as how I just recently debated an anti-Roman Jansenist heretic (Quite well, if I do say so myself :D), it put me in a debating mood, and there isn't a thread like this yet, I'll be the first to do something like this. To anyone either is not a Roman Catholic, or was one and left, I want to know: Why? Tell me any problems you have with the Church of Rome, and I'll answer them to the best of my abilities.
                  I told my ex-wife's priest to stuff it when he told me that she and I were not "really married" and that she could get an annulment and marry the guy she committed adultery on me with. So they excommunicated me.
                  Last edited by Bill the Cat; 12-31-2014, 12:22 PM.
                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  - Stephen R. Donaldson

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                    Note the two poles highlighted above: your desire and God's desire. Important to keep both of those poles active at all times. If at any point, you do not follow your own desire then you are entering into something nonvoluntary or compulsive. God's desire, his calling is always an invitation, a calling to which you are invited, asked to respond, but never required, constrained, or obligated to respond in a certain way. A priest, monsignor, seminary professor, bishop, archbishop, cardinal, or pope cannot order you to become a priest. Neither can God. Why would he, anyway? Would he want someone to dedicate themselves to a life of service against their will? What does that imply about one's image of God? He just wants worker bees performing tasks against their will? Obedience is not about following orders, but about listening to God speaking within yourself, the needs of your community, and deciding how you want to respond with your full self.

                    I was a monk for several years because it was a communal and spiritual life of service that I explored as something that I thought would make me happy, and it did for the first few years. At first I assumed that I would naturally become a priest, but the more I thought about it, it was not the type of work I wanted to do. I was still devoted to the communal and spiritual life of service, but not as a priest. St Francis of Assisi, who founded the Franciscan order was himself not a priest. There is no requirement or obligation to be a priest. It can only be validly entered into freely.
                    Everyone has their story, and yours is interesting also. The point of my experience is that according to the Roman Church, obedience and acceptance of church teachings, Doctrine and Dogma was the up front determination whether one is accepted as having a calling or not.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      Everyone has their story, and yours is interesting also. The point of my experience is that according to the Roman Church, obedience and acceptance of church teachings, Doctrine and Dogma was the up front determination whether one is accepted as having a calling or not.
                      Of course. Bishops would not want to ordain someone whom they knew in advance would not tow the party line.

                      But that has nothing to do with the necessarily voluntary nature of ordination. See, eg, the very first canon in the section of canon law on the requirements of ordination:

                      Can. 1026 A person must possess due freedom in order to be ordained. It is absolutely forbidden to force anyone in any way or for any reason to receive orders or to deter one who is canonically suitable from receiving them.
                      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                        Of course. Bishops would not want to ordain someone whom they knew in advance would not tow the party line.

                        But that has nothing to do with the necessarily voluntary nature of ordination. See, eg, the very first canon in the section of canon law on the requirements of ordination:

                        Can. 1026 A person must possess due freedom in order to be ordained. It is absolutely forbidden to force anyone in any way or for any reason to receive orders or to deter one who is canonically suitable from receiving them.
                        "Party line" is perhaps not the happiest description of something like belief in the Resurrection. Ordination would be pointless if men could be ordained regardless of what they believed.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
                          "Party line" is perhaps not the happiest description of something like belief in the Resurrection. Ordination would be pointless if men could be ordained regardless of what they believed.
                          I agree. The real point under discussion is the necessarily voluntary nature of priestly ordination in Catholic teaching and practice. The most orthodox person in the world should not necessarily be ordained if he does not seek it of his own free will.
                          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                            What was the source? Not The Davinci Code , I hope. I don't think it was ever the intention to have women cardinals, but it has been intentional that Cardinals need not be priests.

                            I agree. But that has nothing to do with women's ordination unless someone says they have a right to ordination. But communities do have a right to leadership and priestly ministry.

                            Sure. I think it's very possible to be very simple and very direct at the same time. Simplicity is very good sometimes.
                            Why and not understanding the reason for this? Even if it were the Davinci Code, and reflecting on women (the four Matriarch) from the very beginning, and from the time of Abraham, and that being - Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel and Leah (mothers) built up the promise to bring salvation to us. Even in the words of the prayer Mary said, “for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant.”

                            Accordingly – priesthood (Catholic) is defined as, “All men who, through the Sacrament of Holy Orders, have become priests participate in Christ's priesthood; they act in persona Christi Capitis, in the person of Christ, the Head of His Body, the Church.”

                            Persona Christi – in the person of Christ, the Head of His Body, the Church.

                            PART ONE
                            THE PROFESSION OF FAITH

                            SECTION TWO
                            THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH

                            CHAPTER THREE
                            I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT

                            ARTICLE 9
                            "I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH"

                            Paragraph 6. Mary - Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church



                            I. MARY'S MOTHERHOOD WITH REGARD TO THE CHURCH

                            Wholly united with her Son . . .

                            964 Mary's role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. "This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death";504 it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:

                            Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother's heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: "Woman, behold your son."505

                            965 After her Son's Ascension, Mary "aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers."506 In her association with the apostles and several women, "we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation."507

                            *********

                            967 By her complete adherence to the Father's will, to his Son's redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church's model of faith and charity. Thus she is a "preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church"; indeed, she is the "exemplary realization" (typus)510 of the Church.

                            968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."511

                            969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512
                            Last edited by Marta; 10-03-2016, 07:04 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Marta View Post
                              Why and not understanding the reason for this? Even if it were the Davinci Code, and reflecting on women (the four Matriarch) from the very beginning, and from the time of Abraham, and that being - Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel and Leah (mothers) built up the promise to bring salvation to us. Even in the words of the prayer Mary said, “for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant.”

                              Accordingly – priesthood (Catholic) is defined as, “All men who, through the Sacrament of Holy Orders, have become priests participate in Christ's priesthood; they act in persona Christi Capitis, in the person of Christ, the Head of His Body, the Church.”

                              Persona Christi – in the person of Christ, the Head of His Body, the Church.

                              PART ONE
                              THE PROFESSION OF FAITH

                              SECTION TWO
                              THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH

                              CHAPTER THREE
                              I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT

                              ARTICLE 9
                              "I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH"

                              Paragraph 6. Mary - Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church



                              I. MARY'S MOTHERHOOD WITH REGARD TO THE CHURCH

                              Wholly united with her Son . . .

                              964 Mary's role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. "This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death";504 it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:

                              Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother's heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: "Woman, behold your son."505

                              965 After her Son's Ascension, Mary "aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers."506 In her association with the apostles and several women, "we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation."507

                              *********

                              967 By her complete adherence to the Father's will, to his Son's redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church's model of faith and charity. Thus she is a "preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church"; indeed, she is the "exemplary realization" (typus)510 of the Church.

                              968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."511

                              969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512
                              I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you are asking here when you say, "Why?" You're asking about the reason for what exactly? Can you simplify or clarify, perhaps? BTW, you're responding to a post I made in response to someone else 2.5 years ago so forgive me if I'm not following your train of thought here.
                              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                                I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you are asking here when you say, "Why?" You're asking about the reason for what exactly? Can you simplify or clarify, perhaps? BTW, you're responding to a post I made in response to someone else 2.5 years ago so forgive me if I'm not following your train of thought here.
                                Train of thought is on women's ordination - Why not? The idea of posting the part MARY'S MOTHERHOOD WITH REGARD TO THE CHURCH - was that Mary had "agreed" as well as all the other Matriarch (past) to serve God. In her response to the Angel Gabriel the phrase, ""I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May your word to me be fulfilled." Then the angel left her."

                                In your obligations (priestly) it is the same commitment, " obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls."

                                What makes women any different than to fulfill their obligations in the same way? Someone did say, "Do you also understand why the discernment of a vocation should also involve the larger community that one might feel called to serve?"

                                Being called to serve was the whole point of Mary - it wasn't designated on how she was to serve? Women have always been "part" of the redemption process since Abraham - to help bring in the promise or to help fulfill the promise along the way. Do you feel that in the church they are restricted?

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