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Catholic Problems

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  • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    You've completely missed the point I was trying to make. I don't think you have an "atheistic bent." I think that placing too much trust in the strength of your convictions is naive at best (fwiw, IMO you're similar to Timeless Theist in this regard). I'm not sure how else to explain it.
    Oh, I was the one saying I have an "atheistic bent." I do. But I cannot be an atheist knowing God (John 17:3). Now Christians often differ on secondary points. But why we differ is, I think, interesting to understand, if we can. It goes to our presuppositions. What we already believe to be true, prior to changing and accept a new or different belief on some matter.

    Some key point were we differ can be useful to both of use to understand. Only by, me, understanding a point that I do not yet understand, can I, 1) change my mind, or 2) make a case which, could change the other's mind (there is no guarantee that is going to happen).

    In this thread, my key objection is the RCC view that it provides God's grace through its sacraments. I do not believe in sacraments. I do believe in the observance of the Christian initiation and rite of immersion of the believer (believer's baptism), a burial with Christ for His death. And I do believe in the observance of the Lord's supper as a remembrance of His death. I do not see them as sacraments in any way. I hold the view one becomes a Christian through faith in God's Christ alone (1 John 5:1).
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      Oh, I was the one saying I have an "atheistic bent." I do. But I cannot be an atheist knowing God (John 17:3). Now Christians often differ on secondary points. But why we differ is, I think, interesting to understand, if we can. It goes to our presuppositions. What we already believe to be true, prior to changing and accept a new or different belief on some matter.

      Some key point were we differ can be useful to both of use to understand. Only by, me, understanding a point that I do not yet understand, can I, 1) change my mind, or 2) make a case which, could change the other's mind (there is no guarantee that is going to happen).
      Some changes we make are ones we never saw coming. I grew up an independent fundamental Baptist. I'm now Orthodox.
      In this thread, my key objection is the RCC view that it provides God's grace through its sacraments. I do not believe in sacraments. I do believe in the observance of the Christian initiation and rite of immersion of the believer (believer's baptism), a burial with Christ for His death. And I do believe in the observance of the Lord's supper as a remembrance of His death. I do not see them as sacraments in any way. I hold the view one becomes a Christian through faith in God's Christ alone (1 John 5:1).
      I think God can provide His grace however He pleases. I see one obvious inconsistency in your position. If one becomes a Christian through faith in God's Christ alone, then baptism and observance of the Lord's Supper is of no value. After all, you conceive of them as works, do you not? Further, if there is no sacramental value in the Lord's supper, then why Paul's warning in 1 Cor. 11:27-30?
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        Some changes we make are ones we never saw coming. I grew up an independent fundamental Baptist. I'm now Orthodox.
        My question then for you, when you were of that view point, how would you have explained to someone, "How to know for sure, when one dies, that one will go to heaven?"

        I think God can provide His grace however He pleases.
        It is my understanding according to God's word, that God's grace is in contrast to works. (Romans 11:6.)
        I see one obvious inconsistency in your position. If one becomes a Christian through faith in God's Christ alone, then baptism and observance of the Lord's Supper is of no value.
        Then why after being saved did Peter instruct Cornelius' household to be baptized? (Acts 10:47?) The immersion has meaning and was commanded.
        After all, you conceive of them as works, do you not?
        I do hold they are commanded works. But not in order to obtain salvation.
        Further, if there is no sacramental value in the Lord's supper, then why Paul's warning in 1 Cor. 11:27-30?
        There are issues: One, if the observance of the remembrance of our Lord's death is subject to physical death by unworthily eating it (v. 30). Then would that not make free will giving a sacrament too? (Acts 4:35-5:1-11?) And secondly the eating unworthily was eating the remembrance as a meal instead of what it was to be (1 Corinthians 11:34). And note worthy, Judas who was not a believer, eat of it too (Luke 22:19-21).
        Last edited by 37818; 04-17-2014, 03:50 PM.
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • I'm going to throw this one out there; While the Catholic Church is Orthodox in its belief, one of its practices is to be more "Church Focused" because of the idea that "There is no salvation outside the Church."
          Granted, the RCC has expounded on this definition, but to the "Cafeteria" subset, or the C&E goer's, they really think that "As Long as I just do what I should" I'll go to heaven right? There is somewhat of an evangelical movement inside Catholicism, But the aspect of having a relationship with Christ needs to be emphasized more. Most devoted Catholics I know do this, but there is a great rift in the Church, and its causing major problems. The issue isn't the Doctrine. The issue is practice.
          A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
          George Bernard Shaw

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
            I'm going to throw this one out there; While the Catholic Church is Orthodox in its belief, one of its practices is to be more "Church Focused" because of the idea that "There is no salvation outside the Church."
            Granted, the RCC has expounded on this definition, but to the "Cafeteria" subset, or the C&E goer's, they really think that "As Long as I just do what I should" I'll go to heaven right? There is somewhat of an evangelical movement inside Catholicism, But the aspect of having a relationship with Christ needs to be emphasized more. Most devoted Catholics I know do this, but there is a great rift in the Church, and its causing major problems. The issue isn't the Doctrine. The issue is practice.
            Be careful what you're capitalizing. The filioque, for example is certainly not Orthodox.
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

            Comment


            • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              Be careful what you're capitalizing. The filioque, for example is certainly not Orthodox.
              Oh sure.....pick on the things that really aren't that big of a deal as opposed to the one's that ARE!!!
              A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
              George Bernard Shaw

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
                Oh sure.....pick on the things that really aren't that big of a deal as opposed to the one's that ARE!!!
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
                  I'm going to throw this one out there; While the Catholic Church is Orthodox in its belief, one of its practices is to be more "Church Focused" because of the idea that "There is no salvation outside the Church."
                  Granted, the RCC has expounded on this definition, but to the "Cafeteria" subset, or the C&E goer's, they really think that "As Long as I just do what I should" I'll go to heaven right? There is somewhat of an evangelical movement inside Catholicism, But the aspect of having a relationship with Christ needs to be emphasized more. Most devoted Catholics I know do this, but there is a great rift in the Church, and its causing major problems. The issue isn't the Doctrine. The issue is practice.
                  This, I actually agree on, wholeheartedly.
                  Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

                  -Thomas Aquinas

                  I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

                  -Hernando Cortez

                  What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

                  -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
                    I'm going to throw this one out there; While the Catholic Church is Orthodox in its belief, one of its practices is to be more "Church Focused" because of the idea that "There is no salvation outside the Church."
                    Granted, the RCC has expounded on this definition, but to the "Cafeteria" subset, or the C&E goer's, they really think that "As Long as I just do what I should" I'll go to heaven right? There is somewhat of an evangelical movement inside Catholicism, But the aspect of having a relationship with Christ needs to be emphasized more. Most devoted Catholics I know do this, but there is a great rift in the Church, and its causing major problems. The issue isn't the Doctrine. The issue is practice.
                    I believe the main rifts are Doctrine and Dogma which underlies any attempt at reform and change within the Roman Church. Changes in recent times, ie sense Vatican II have been around the edges of Doctrine and Dogma. 'Normal Salvation remains defined as 'No Salvation outside the Church.' There has been some emphasis on what I call 'Extraordinary Salvation.' which in rare cases offer the potential of Salvation outside the Church (ie, no one knows the Will of God, or the inner reality of the individual inside or outside the church). Salvation remains essentially dependent on; ' Knowledge (necessity of the One true Church?), Sincerity and Desire' inside or outside the Church.

                    The present inflexibility of Doctrines such as the celibacy for the priesthood, and the nuns, represents a significant problem in the Church. I consider the Doctrine of Celibacy to be unnatural, where individual choses of celibacy would be a natural choice.

                    I consider this as the biggest problem in the relationship between the Roman Church and those outside the church, especially a barrier to any consideration of ecumenism. One of the primary reforms of Vatican II is the efforts to improve dialogue and relationships with those outside the Roman Church.
                    Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-20-2014, 09:56 AM.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • Priestly celibacy is not a doctrine of the Roman catholic church but a discipline, ie, considered as merely man-made church law, which has and can change. If it is not entered into voluntarily, it is not legally valid. Since it a man-made law, technically a pope, considered to be part of the ultimate human authority in the church and its head, is not necessarily subject to this law. Celibacy of nuns, sisters, monks and brothers is also entirely voluntary and necessarily so. As a Jesuit, the present pope took a voluntary vow of life-long celibacy independent of his subsequent priestly ordination and would still be bound by his vow, though the church does have the ability to dispense someone from their vows of poverty, chastity, obedience, and stability.

                      There is no current Roman catholic doctrine that claims 'extraordinary' salvation is rare. Personally, I do not consider salvation to be ordinary. It is ordinarily extraordinary in my experience and sometimes extraordinarily ordinary.
                      Last edited by robrecht; 05-20-2014, 11:13 AM.
                      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                        Priestly celibacy is not a doctrine of the Roman catholic church but a discipline, ie, considered as merely man-made church law, which has and can change. If it is not entered into voluntarily, it is not legally valid. Since it a man-made law, technically a pope, considered to be part of the ultimate human authority in the church and its head, is not necessarily subject to this law. Celibacy of nuns, sisters, monks and brothers is also entirely voluntary and necessarily so. As a Jesuit, the present pope took a voluntary vow of life-long celibacy independent of his subsequent priestly ordination and would still be bound by his vow, though the church does have the ability to dispense someone from their vows of poverty, chastity, obedience, and stability.
                        Your correct, it is a discipline, not a doctrine. Voluntary? You cannot be a married priest in the Roman Church unless, you are a married Anglican (possibly other exceptions?) married priest that converts to the Roman Church, or in some cases maintaining celibacy while married if the marriage took place before one becomes episcopate. This discipline is not voluntary if you wish to be episcopate. There are no exceptions for those who are priests, they cannot marry. This is true for all orders of the Roman Church who practice the discipline of celibacy.

                        There is no current Roman catholic doctrine that claims 'extraordinary' salvation is rare. Personally, I do not consider salvation to be ordinary. It is ordinarily extraordinary in my experience and sometimes extraordinarily ordinary.
                        I never said salvation was 'ordinary.'

                        Never said there was, the fact is it is described as 'rare.' Literature often uses the word 'extraordinary' to describe salvation outside Doctrine of 'No Salvation outside the Church, and the acknowledged exceptions based on 'knowledge, sincerity and desire.'
                        Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-20-2014, 12:45 PM.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          Your correct, it is a discipline, not a doctrine. Voluntary? You cannot be a married priest in the Roman Church unless, you are a married Anglican (possibly other exceptions?) married priest that converts to the Roman Church, or in some cases maintaining celibacy while married if the marriage took place before one becomes episcopate. This discipline is not voluntary if you wish to be episcopate. There are no exceptions for those who are priests, they cannot marry. This is true for all orders of the Roman Church who practice the discipline of celibacy.

                          Never said there was, the fact is it is described as 'rare.'
                          Who are you referring to when you say it is described as 'rare'?

                          In the Eastern orthodox churches, the episcopacy is required to be celibate, whereas in the Roman catholic church a promise of celibacy is required of all who, again voluntarily, wish to be ordained to the priesthood, not just the episcopacy.
                          Last edited by robrecht; 05-20-2014, 09:50 PM.
                          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                            Who are you referring to when you say it is described as 'rare'?

                            In the Eastern orthodox churches, the episcopacy is required to be celebate, whereas in the Roman catholic church a promise of celibacy is required of all who, again voluntarily, wish to be ordained to the priesthood, not just the episcopacy.
                            Your reverse logic failed, to be a member of any order in the Roman Church, celibacy is an absolute requirement it is not a voluntary choice as a priest or nun.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                              Who are you referring to when you say it is described as 'rare'?
                              The documents of the Roman Church. Read for yourself. We discussed them in a previous thread.

                              In the Eastern orthodox churches, the episcopacy is required to be celebate, whereas in the Roman catholic church a promise of celibacy is required of all who, again voluntarily, wish to be ordained to the priesthood, not just the episcopacy.
                              In the Roman church, the episcopacy is required to be celebate.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                                Your reverse logic failed, to be a member of any order in the Roman Church, celibacy is an absolute requirement it is not a voluntary choice as a priest or nun.
                                To become a priest or nun is a voluntary matter. No one is obligated to be celibate.

                                Besides, I know a number of married permanent deacons.
                                Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                                Comment

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