Page 2 of 36 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 355

Thread: Catholic Problems

  1. #11
    tWebber TimelessTheist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Wouldn't you like to know?
    Faith
    Roman Catholic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,001
    Amen (Given)
    3
    Amen (Received)
    11
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    I don't like that they excommunicated me for getting divorced with a biblical reason to do so...
    Eh....well, I don't know much about that....it sounds like a personal issue so I'm not sure if asking why would be okay.
    Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

    -Thomas Aquinas

    I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

    -Hernando Cortez

    What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

    -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

  2. #12
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Inside the beltway
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    15,697
    Amen (Given)
    5017
    Amen (Received)
    9171
    I have a problem with the pope being THE vicar of Christ on earth. I have a problem with the pope unilaterally proclaiming dogma, "infallible" or not (Pope Honorius was clearly not). I have a problem with the inherent ambiguity in the filioque, as well as its promulgation by papal fiat. I find Ignatius of Loyola's Spiritual Exercises disturbing (when I read Clerical Error, I was more disturbed by the descriptions of Jesuit training than the goings on at Vatican II). Eh, those are probably the major gripes.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  3. #13
    tWebber Spartacus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Broman Catholic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,979
    Amen (Given)
    263
    Amen (Received)
    949
    Quote Originally Posted by robrecht View Post
    I don't see why it is a loophole. There is no reason why a Cardinal should only be a man or a priest. I know of men in modern times who have been Cardinals without being priests, but can't think of any women.
    It was regarded by some of the sources I read as a loophole; that is, it may not have been intentional on the part of those who composed canon law that women might be appointed cardinals.

    Of course not! I don't think anyone is suggesting that everyone should
    And yet it's a tendency that must be overcome. Instead of challenging the laity to live out their faith in the world, clerics have been inviting the laity up on the altar. No one has a right to Holy Orders-- no man and no woman.

    The same argument could be used for not ordaining men, right?
    Except that the first bishops were clearly men, this would be true.

    It does women either individually or collectively no harm to say that they cannot be ordained, but this statement can be understood (perhaps paradoxically) as a testimony to the universal call to holiness.

    I don't think it's simplistic, but it does not address the issue directly.
    We all know that addressing issues directly went out with the reforms of Vatican II That said, is there such a thing as a simplistic explanation that doesn't directly (though perhaps inadequately) address the issue?

  4. #14
    tWebber TimelessTheist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Wouldn't you like to know?
    Faith
    Roman Catholic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,001
    Amen (Given)
    3
    Amen (Received)
    11
    I have a problem with the pope being THE vicar of Christ on earth.
    Please substantiate. What is the problem?

    I have a problem with the pope unilaterally proclaiming dogma, "infallible" or not (Pope Honorius was clearly not).
    I know exactly what you're talking about, and the answer is: Sorry, but you're wrong. Pope Honorius did not actually teach Monothelitism, he simply didn't make a decision on it either way.

    I find Ignatius of Loyola's Spiritual Exercises disturbing (when I read Clerical Error, I was more disturbed by the descriptions of Jesuit training than the goings on at Vatican II).
    I...uh, don't see what you mean? Can you give me some specifics?
    Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

    -Thomas Aquinas

    I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

    -Hernando Cortez

    What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

    -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

  5. #15
    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    The Kingdom of God
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    6,865
    Amen (Given)
    896
    Amen (Received)
    1571
    Quote Originally Posted by TimelessTheist View Post
    1) I dare you to cite any example of this. 2) Papal infallibility only applies to the Pope when he speaks ex cathedra. Something the Pope says, off-hand, isn't infallible. Even then, it applies to declarations of faith and morals 'only'.
    What I said was not specifically about papal infallibility, in the sense of ex cathedra, but about when Catholic popes and councils collectively change their opinion on something. The only example I had in mind was the contortions that some Catholics resort to when trying to claim that Vatican II did not really change the way that most in the church had come to understand ex ecclesiam nulla salus or, conversely, how others in the Church can never accept that ex ecclesiam nulla salus should have been changed and, ironically, even leave the church because of it, claiming that recent popes are heretics, or worse. I could think of more examples if I thought back on my seminary training.

    Quote Originally Posted by TimelessTheist View Post
    That's not only untrue, it's also a freaking horrible thing to say about Catholic priests. Also...."imported"? Do I detect some weird racism in there somewhere?
    How do you know it's untrue. It was my experience and that of others as well. Maybe we're delusional and wrong, but I don't think so. No, you do not detect racism. Race has nothing to do with what I was talking about. I was living with priests from one European country who had come to work in another European country because of the shortage of priests there and they were no longer really welcome in their home country. They had no interest in learning the local culture and they did not inspire anyone to join them. One was a pedophile who was never held accountable. One was into the black arts. One was a nice guy, but was mostly concerned with money, and the fourth was severely depressed and never sought help, nor was he ever encouraged to do so. Do you know much about the church in Europe?

    Quote Originally Posted by TimelessTheist View Post
    Oh, I see, so it's wrong because it makes you feel bad? Great argument there.
    Do you really believe that is what I was saying?

    Quote Originally Posted by TimelessTheist View Post
    It actually just sounds like you enjoyed your family, not the church itself.
    Actually both. Read again what I said about inspiring.
    Last edited by robrecht; 04-02-2014 at 02:06 AM.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

  6. #16
    tWebber TimelessTheist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Wouldn't you like to know?
    Faith
    Roman Catholic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,001
    Amen (Given)
    3
    Amen (Received)
    11
    Also? Clerical Error? Isn't that an autobiography? Sorry, but I'm not sure the unsupported testimony of a single man, literal decades after the events transpired, would be enough to warrant a conviction in any courtroom.
    Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

    -Thomas Aquinas

    I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

    -Hernando Cortez

    What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

    -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

  7. #17
    tWebber TimelessTheist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Wouldn't you like to know?
    Faith
    Roman Catholic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,001
    Amen (Given)
    3
    Amen (Received)
    11
    What I said was not specifically about papal infallibility, in the sense of ex cathedra, but about when Catholic popes and councils change their opinion on something. The only example I had in mind was the contortions that some Catholics resort to when trying to claim that Vatican II did not really change the way that most in the church had come to understand ex ecclesiam nulla salus or, conversely, how others in the Church can never accept that ex ecclesiam nulla salus should have been changed and, ironically, even leave the church because of it, claiming that recent popes are heretics, or worse. I could think of more examples if I thought back on my seminary training.
    Well, I don't really see any "contortions" there. While I don't doubt that there were a lot of radicals that held to the view that, literally everyone, no matter if they were ignorant, or unable, or whatever, outside the Church were damned, no excuses, no exceptions, throughout history. However I also have no doubt that there were plenty of people that saw it our way as well. If you can present some proof that, in an official sense, the Church most definitely believed the opposite, then please present it.
    Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

    -Thomas Aquinas

    I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

    -Hernando Cortez

    What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

    -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

  8. #18
    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    The Kingdom of God
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    6,865
    Amen (Given)
    896
    Amen (Received)
    1571
    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    It was regarded by some of the sources I read as a loophole; that is, it may not have been intentional on the part of those who composed canon law that women might be appointed cardinals.
    What was the source? Not The Davinci Code, I hope. I don't think it was ever the intention to have women cardinals, but it has been intentional that Cardinals need not be priests.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    And yet it's a tendency that must be overcome. Instead of challenging the laity to live out their faith in the world, clerics have been inviting the laity up on the altar. No one has a right to Holy Orders-- no man and no woman.
    I agree. But that has nothing to do with women's ordination unless someone says they have a right to ordination. But communities do have a right to leadership and priestly ministry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    Except that the first bishops were clearly men, this would be true.
    Different time, different place. We live in the Catholic church; it should be more universal, in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    It does women either individually or collectively no harm to say that they cannot be ordained, but this statement can be understood (perhaps paradoxically) as a testimony to the universal call to holiness.
    I don't see the paradox. Can you explain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    We all know that addressing issues directly went out with the reforms of Vatican II That said, is there such a thing as a simplistic explanation that doesn't directly (though perhaps inadequately) address the issue?
    Sure. I think it's very possible to be very simple and very direct at the same time. Simplicity is very good sometimes.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

  9. #19
    Professor Catholicity's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    the neighbor of the yellow brick road
    Faith
    Ecumenical Christian
    Gender
    Female
    Posts
    3,789
    Amen (Given)
    1105
    Amen (Received)
    1523
    I have not formally been anulled, therefore I have not been back to receive communion. However, I could neither afford an anullment, and the entire issue has brought me to raise questions about whether or not the Church has carried the issue "too far" Along with the issue of Papal infallibility, and a few other things which I feel have been given either an all or nothing stance, that do the Church no good. And here just to throw this out there. One is considered to have committed a mortal against chastity if the person has masturbated. The soul is now in jeopardy (with some minor exceptions) Granted of course few actually take the vow of chastity exceptions being the Papacy. Clergy and the Clerics, for this its probably a true sin. Now the Church has so greatly interfered in even marriage that its a sin between a man and a woman if the pleasure themselves in the confines of sex. A mortal sin. But the act is in the sexual context. I cannot believe the Church has this correct by any means. Given precisely how a male body and a female body work, and the circumstances, I firmly believe that the Church has overstretched something she doesn't understand. Especially to claim the soul is in danger with God. I can buy this for murder, for many other things, but not this. Neither could I buy it for many other things the Church has claimed are sins. And the "seal" of all this is supposed papal infallibility. Again, I am unable to believe that this is true. Now the Church has stepped on the seed of potential pride. And she takes hundreds of years to admit when she is wrong. This doesn't mean I'm angry or harbor ill will. I'm just convinced, that like every other Church there are incorrect things. And to be honest and conclude I do believe the RCC has more right beliefs than wrong beliefs, but for the sake of the promise that I had to believe everything, I cannot in good conscience attend.
    A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
    George Bernard Shaw

  10. #20
    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    The Kingdom of God
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    6,865
    Amen (Given)
    896
    Amen (Received)
    1571
    Quote Originally Posted by TimelessTheist View Post
    Well, I don't really see any "contortions" there. While I don't doubt that there were a lot of radicals that held to the view that, literally everyone, no matter if they were ignorant, or unable, or whatever, outside the Church were damned, no excuses, no exceptions, throughout history. However I also have no doubt that there were plenty of people that saw it our way as well. If you can present some proof that, in an official sense, the Church most definitely believed the opposite, then please present it.
    Too tired right now. Besides, I have to get back to a discussion about this with Shuny when I do have more time for extended discussion. This is mainly just my personal experience of some of the books I read in college and a few professors in seminary and some super traditionalist wackjobs on the Internet or that I've heard about but never met. It is absolutely true that both opinions were common prior to Vatican II, but the official position was generally rigorist and that changed with Vatican II. I'm sure you can find some reading material on this, probably sooner than I could dig it up for you.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •