Also? Clerical Error? Isn't that an autobiography? Sorry, but I'm not sure the unsupported testimony of a single man, literal decades after the events transpired, would be enough to warrant a conviction in any courtroom.
Announcement
Collapse
Comparative Religions 101 Guidelines
Welcome to Comp Religions, this is where the sights and sounds of the many world religions come together in a big World's Fair type atmosphere, without those delicious funnel cakes.
World Religions is a theist only type place, but that does not exclude certain religionists who practice non-theistic faiths ala Buddhism. If you are not sure, ask a moderator.
This is not a place where we argue the existence / non-existence of God.
And as usual, the forum rules apply.
Forum Rules: Here
World Religions is a theist only type place, but that does not exclude certain religionists who practice non-theistic faiths ala Buddhism. If you are not sure, ask a moderator.
This is not a place where we argue the existence / non-existence of God.
And as usual, the forum rules apply.
Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less
Catholic Problems
Collapse
X
-
What I said was not specifically about papal infallibility, in the sense of ex cathedra, but about when Catholic popes and councils change their opinion on something. The only example I had in mind was the contortions that some Catholics resort to when trying to claim that Vatican II did not really change the way that most in the church had come to understand ex ecclesiam nulla salus or, conversely, how others in the Church can never accept that ex ecclesiam nulla salus should have been changed and, ironically, even leave the church because of it, claiming that recent popes are heretics, or worse. I could think of more examples if I thought back on my seminary training.Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.
-Thomas Aquinas
I love to travel, But hate to arrive.
-Hernando Cortez
What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?
-Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor
Comment
-
Originally posted by Spartacus View PostIt was regarded by some of the sources I read as a loophole; that is, it may not have been intentional on the part of those who composed canon law that women might be appointed cardinals.
Originally posted by Spartacus View PostAnd yet it's a tendency that must be overcome. Instead of challenging the laity to live out their faith in the world, clerics have been inviting the laity up on the altar. No one has a right to Holy Orders-- no man and no woman.
Originally posted by Spartacus View PostExcept that the first bishops were clearly men, this would be true.
Originally posted by Spartacus View PostIt does women either individually or collectively no harm to say that they cannot be ordained, but this statement can be understood (perhaps paradoxically) as a testimony to the universal call to holiness.
Originally posted by Spartacus View PostWe all know that addressing issues directly went out with the reforms of Vatican II That said, is there such a thing as a simplistic explanation that doesn't directly (though perhaps inadequately) address the issue?אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
Comment
-
I have not formally been anulled, therefore I have not been back to receive communion. However, I could neither afford an anullment, and the entire issue has brought me to raise questions about whether or not the Church has carried the issue "too far" Along with the issue of Papal infallibility, and a few other things which I feel have been given either an all or nothing stance, that do the Church no good. And here just to throw this out there. One is considered to have committed a mortal against chastity if the person has masturbated. The soul is now in jeopardy (with some minor exceptions) Granted of course few actually take the vow of chastity exceptions being the Papacy. Clergy and the Clerics, for this its probably a true sin. Now the Church has so greatly interfered in even marriage that its a sin between a man and a woman if the pleasure themselves in the confines of sex. A mortal sin. But the act is in the sexual context. I cannot believe the Church has this correct by any means. Given precisely how a male body and a female body work, and the circumstances, I firmly believe that the Church has overstretched something she doesn't understand. Especially to claim the soul is in danger with God. I can buy this for murder, for many other things, but not this. Neither could I buy it for many other things the Church has claimed are sins. And the "seal" of all this is supposed papal infallibility. Again, I am unable to believe that this is true. Now the Church has stepped on the seed of potential pride. And she takes hundreds of years to admit when she is wrong. This doesn't mean I'm angry or harbor ill will. I'm just convinced, that like every other Church there are incorrect things. And to be honest and conclude I do believe the RCC has more right beliefs than wrong beliefs, but for the sake of the promise that I had to believe everything, I cannot in good conscience attend.A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
George Bernard Shaw
Comment
-
Originally posted by TimelessTheist View PostWell, I don't really see any "contortions" there. While I don't doubt that there were a lot of radicals that held to the view that, literally everyone, no matter if they were ignorant, or unable, or whatever, outside the Church were damned, no excuses, no exceptions, throughout history. However I also have no doubt that there were plenty of people that saw it our way as well. If you can present some proof that, in an official sense, the Church most definitely believed the opposite, then please present it.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
Comment
-
One was a pedophile who was never held accountable. One was into the black arts. One was a nice guy, but was mostly concerned with money, and the fourth was severely depressed and never sought help, nor was he ever encouraged to do so. Do you know much about the church in Europe?Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.
-Thomas Aquinas
I love to travel, But hate to arrive.
-Hernando Cortez
What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?
-Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor
Comment
-
Originally posted by robrecht View PostWhat was the source? Not The Davinci Code, I hope. I don't think it was ever the intention to have women cardinals, but it has been intentional that Cardinals need not be priests.
I agree. But that has nothing to do with women's ordination unless someone says they have a right to ordination. But communities do have a right to leadership and priestly ministry.
Different time, different place. We live in the Catholic church; it should be more universal, in my opinion.
I don't see the paradox. Can you explain?
Sure. I think it's very possible to be very simple and very direct at the same time. Simplicity is very good sometimes.Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Catholicity View PostI have not formally been anulled, therefore I have not been back to receive communion. However, I could neither afford an anullment, and the entire issue has brought me to raise questions about whether or not the Church has carried the issue "too far" Along with the issue of Papal infallibility, and a few other things which I feel have been given either an all or nothing stance, that do the Church no good. And here just to throw this out there. One is considered to have committed a mortal against chastity if the person has masturbated. The soul is now in jeopardy (with some minor exceptions) Granted of course few actually take the vow of chastity exceptions being the Papacy. Clergy and the Clerics, for this its probably a true sin. Now the Church has so greatly interfered in even marriage that its a sin between a man and a woman if the pleasure themselves in the confines of sex. A mortal sin. But the act is in the sexual context. I cannot believe the Church has this correct by any means. Given precisely how a male body and a female body work, and the circumstances, I firmly believe that the Church has overstretched something she doesn't understand. Especially to claim the soul is in danger with God. I can buy this for murder, for many other things, but not this. Neither could I buy it for many other things the Church has claimed are sins. And the "seal" of all this is supposed papal infallibility. Again, I am unable to believe that this is true. Now the Church has stepped on the seed of potential pride. And she takes hundreds of years to admit when she is wrong. This doesn't mean I'm angry or harbor ill will. I'm just convinced, that like every other Church there are incorrect things. And to be honest and conclude I do believe the RCC has more right beliefs than wrong beliefs, but for the sake of the promise that I had to believe everything, I cannot in good conscience attend.
Secondly, on the subject of papal infallibility...well, I really can't answer that, as you didn't list a specific problem? However, the fact that it was generally accepted, albeit not officially declared, throughout Church history is well attested to.Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.
-Thomas Aquinas
I love to travel, But hate to arrive.
-Hernando Cortez
What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?
-Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor
Comment
-
As fashionable as it is to hit the church on this topic, I am floored by how the church handled a local news story where I live last year. It turned out a priest was making child pornography by taking photos of girls in the parish, and the local bishop didn't report it. He ended up getting convicted of failure to report child sex abuse, yet he is still the local bishop. If the church is taking the issue seriously, how can he still be there?"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
Comment
-
Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostAs fashionable as it is to hit the church on this topic, I am floored by how the church handled a local news story where I live last year. It turned out a priest was making child pornography by taking photos of girls in the parish, and the local bishop didn't report it. He ended up getting convicted of failure to report child sex abuse, yet he is still the local bishop. If the church is taking the issue seriously, how can he still be there?Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.
-Thomas Aquinas
I love to travel, But hate to arrive.
-Hernando Cortez
What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?
-Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor
Comment
-
Originally posted by TimelessTheist View PostPlease substantiate. What is the problem?
I know exactly what you're talking about, and the answer is: Sorry, but you're wrong. Pope Honorius did not actually teach Monothelitism, he simply didn't make a decision on it either way.
I...uh, don't see what you mean? Can you give me some specifics?Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
Comment
-
Originally posted by TimelessTheist View PostCan I have a source, please?"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
Comment
-
Originally posted by TimelessTheist View PostAlso? Clerical Error? Isn't that an autobiography? Sorry, but I'm not sure the unsupported testimony of a single man, literal decades after the events transpired, would be enough to warrant a conviction in any courtroom.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
Comment
-
Originally posted by Spartacus View PostNah, I just remember reading a couple blogs a while before the pope was asked. The question had been brewing for a little while.
Leadership and priestly ministry are not the same thing.
Originally posted by Spartacus View PostThe ordained priesthood should be more universal, you mean?
Originally posted by Spartacus View PostIn denying people access to the clerical state, which was once seen as the only true path to holiness, the Church makes it clear that the call to holiness is in fact universal. Maybe it's not as paradoxical as my addled mind first thought.Originally posted by Spartacus View PostThe question was whether an answer can be both simplistic and non-direct.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
Comment
-
Christ is the head of the Church. He doesn't need another one down here.
Per the acts of the Sixth Ecumenical Council, Pope Agatho himself condemned Honorius as a heretic. Unfortunately, I don't have access to the full acts of the council, but it seems that Pope Honorius wrote to Sergius with the phrase "we confess" one will - which can hardly be passed off as private opinion. Pope Leo II accepted the acts of the council and condemned Honorius as a heretic, and so did popes for the next three hundred years.
Robert Kaiser describes being told to use imagination to focus on various scenes in the mind during meditation, which is fraught with peril, and the students were cooking and eating full course meals - it's no wonder they were struggling with passions!Last edited by TimelessTheist; 04-01-2014, 10:24 PM.Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.
-Thomas Aquinas
I love to travel, But hate to arrive.
-Hernando Cortez
What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?
-Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor
Comment
widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
Comment