Travel to interstellar planets ...

[Jorge]

Plus 10^-23 to 10^-24 grams per cubic cm isn't even a grain of sand or a speck of dust. We would talking about what, a few atom's per cubic cm in most of interstellar space?

********************************************************

That would be between 1 and 10 atoms per cc.

But you, as well as all of the "scientifically-enlightened" Evo-Faithful here
completely miss one key point. If you can find out what that is, on your
own without cheating, then you will have learned, Grasshopper.

Jorge

[rogue06]

Good to see you around technomage. Hope you're doing well.

[Jorge]

I quite agree. The only possible "real-science" method of doing so would be generational ships--scientifically possible, even though they are currently technologically infeasible at this time.

There is also the possibility of cryogenic preservation (something I do not believe will happen, but could).

It should be noted, not all science fiction is equally impossible. Submarines and airplanes were, at one time, science fiction. While I hold no hope for faster-than-light travel (or even near-light-speed acceleration), hyperspace, wormholes, quantum teleportation, or any such tales, generational ships are eminently within the realms of possibility.

****************************************************

Congratulations, that's the first and only sensible answer that's been posted.

All of the things that you mention do indeed belong to science fiction.
Faster than light acceleration is impossible if you believe in the validity
of the STR or GTR. Hyperspace, wormholes, quantum teleportation,
Warp Drive, Klingons and Vulcans -- all of these are science fiction
creations with SOME 'science' behind them but ZERO observational
support ... that's zero, zilch, nada ... that's what makes them sci-fi.

Generational ships? Possible in theory but the imagination needs to be
stretched more than Silly Putty, plus numerous problems would first have
to be solved. Sure, if we write ourselves a 'blank check' and assume all
of those problems solved then, of course, anything is possible. Even so,
it had better be traveling very fast and, at high speeds (0.1c +), problems
arise for which I believe no solution is even imaginable today (without
invoking Star Trek stuff). That is my point: sci-fi must be invoked.

Jorge

[rogue06]

But you, as well as all of the "scientifically-enlightened" Evo-Faithful here
completely miss one key point.

In case you haven't noticed interstellar space travel isn't about evolution. There is more than one person here asking you to back up your statements who doesn't accept evolution so you can drop your "Evo-Faithful" snarks.

[lilpixieofterror]

That would be between 1 and 10 atoms per cc.

And how many space craft have traveled from Earth to other places without running into issues with this and I know within a solar system, the density is going to be far greater than it is outside a solar system? It seems as though you are trying, very desperately, to defend a belief that simply cannot be defended. It is as though your faith is based on ideas that have not a thing to do with Christianity. In many ways, I feel rather sorry that your faith is that weak that even admitting to the possibility of a generation ship being, able to travel to another solar system, would destroy your faith.

But you, as well as all of the "scientifically-enlightened" Evo-Faithful here
completely miss one key point. If you can find out what that is, on your
own without cheating, then you will have learned, Grasshopper.

Or you were trying to impress people with using math sounding answers, but in truth, you're throwing a fit about 1-10 atoms per cubic CM of space and acting as though this should prevent any kind of interstellar travel. True, the faster one moves, the more problems this would cause a space craft that is traveling, but again… what speeds are we talking about traveling at and is this problem a big of a deal as you claim it is?

[technomage]

Good to see you around technomage. Hope you're doing well.

As well as can be expected.

[lilpixieofterror]

Congratulations, that's the first and only sensible answer that's been posted.

And yet, your OP did not claim this, here is what you claimed:

Several years ago I wrote something to the effect that barring something
straight out of science fiction, travel to planets around other stars will
not ever be achieved.. I stand by that statement.

This is the statement that is being disputed because I don't think anybody here has said that traveling to another solar system is currenty feasible.

All of the things that you mention do indeed belong to science fiction.
Faster than light acceleration is impossible if you believe in the validity
of the STR or GTR. Hyperspace, wormholes, quantum teleportation,
Warp Drive, Klingons and Vulcans -- all of these are science fiction
creations with SOME 'science' behind them but ZERO observational
support ... that's zero, zilch, nada ... that's what makes them sci-fi.

Many things were once 'science fiction' Jorge, just to name a few:

- Wireless communications like what appeared on the origional star trek series. Today, these are cell phones.
- Lasers, these are pretty common devices today and the USAF is expermenting with powerful ones that could shoot down missles.
- Heavier then air flight

The list can go on and on and on and on, I will grant that our current understandings of physics would make FTL travel impossible, I nor can anybody though say with 100% authority it is impossible and even if it is, generation ships would still be within scientific reach.

Generational ships? Possible in theory but the imagination needs to be
stretched more than Silly Putty, plus numerous problems would first have
to be solved. Sure, if we write ourselves a 'blank check' and assume all
of those problems solved then, of course, anything is possible. Even so,
it had better be traveling very fast and, at high speeds (0.1c +), problems
arise for which I believe no solution is even imaginable today (without
invoking Star Trek stuff). That is my point: sci-fi must be invoked.

Which again, is hardly something to dispute, but the problem is here is what you said:

Several years ago I wrote something to the effect that barring something
straight out of science fiction, travel to planets around other stars will
not ever be achieved.. I stand by that statement.

How can you say this with 100% authority? After all, my cell phone once also came from the screen of Star Trek. I could almost picture you saying that it is impossible for cell phones to exist in the 1960's and well... how well did that turn out? Not only that, but why does a spacecraft need to go .10 C? As long as you can deal with the problems of food, oxygen, and supplies, and reproduction for 100 years, it could be done (kind of one of the reasons many of the ideas of a generation ship produces a ship that is about as long as the state of Texas, to have enough stuff or the materal to make stuff, for such a trip would require a lot of supplies).

[RBerman]

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[sigh ...] Do you have any background in science, maths and / or logic?

Jorge

Yes, actually. Your insults and condescension are not worthy of someone who claims the name of Christ, or someone who aspires to involvement in the civic life of our nation. And a sigh is not a response., at least not one that will sway anyone to agree with your viewpoint.

[technomage]

Possible in theory but the imagination needs to be
stretched more than Silly Putty, plus numerous problems would first have
to be solved.

Not quite. At this point, all of the science is in place--as far as the science goes, generational ships are nothing more than an engineering problem. (They are also an economic problem, as any attempt to build them would beggar the economy of the world as a whole for little or no economic benefit--the ROI would be miniscule at best.)

Scientifically possible, but economically infeasible.

Even so, it had better be traveling very fast

Or be designed for a very long, relatively slow flight, which would not only be safer, it would be closer to our current technological achievement.

A generational ship would have other difficulties: radiation shielding; rotation for pseudo-gravity; size and content of the contained biosphere; reproductive records and planning for the crew (to prevent breeding too closely); and most of all, maintenance. After all, you can't stop at a gas station to pick up spare parts if something breaks.

[Cerebrum123]

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C123 - I ask kindly that if you don't know what you're talking
about then it's best, and wise, if you just remain silent.

I DID give them what was needed - I even outlined the procedure!!!
The calculations are trivial - high school level.
These people claim to be "versed in science and maths".
They claim that we YECs don't know anything about science and maths.
And they can't even perform a high-school-level exercise?

Furthermore, I am not here to provide a free education.
I provided what I said I would and I gave sufficient rationale for
the relatively straightforward conclusions.
If these people are too dumb to figure out the rest - if they need
help spelling "cat" - then they're in the wrong place (Science 301),
they need to be in Science for Idiots and Toddlers or similar.
And they certainly don't need your voice added to theirs - they
have a big-enough arrogant mouth as it is ... no help is needed.

You want equations? Do you need help on how to compute volume?
The average density of the ISM is between 10^-24 and 10^-23 grams per cm³
Assume that no "large" object is encountered (flight 'ends' if that happens).
Decide on a flight path cross-sectional area (your choice, but reasonable).
Do you know how to compute classic kinetic energy? 1/2 mv²
Do you know what Conservation of Energy is?
That's all you need. As I said, it's high school level stuff.

Was there something else you wanted to ask or is that it for now?

Jorge

Personally, I am incapable of doing the math myself(RSD has some pretty bad stuff done to my thought processes), and you essentially said that if they provide a path, you would provide the math. All I was asking was that you deliver your end.

[Cerebrum123]

In case you haven't noticed interstellar space travel isn't about evolution. There is more than one person here asking you to back up your statements who doesn't accept evolution so you can drop your "Evo-Faithful" snarks.

I think a lot of this is about how evolutionist's often expect to find intelligent life out there, which is something that is not really compatible with the Bible(remember the thread where Ansgar Seraph was talking about E.T.'s and futuristic robots needing salvation?). I could be wrong, but I think that a lot of this has to do with the idea that life evolved elsewhere, and the fantasy of encountering it through space travel.

[phank]

Since Jorge has never bothered to make it clear (doubtless even in his own mind) whether the permanent impossibility of interstellar travel is a scientific problem, an engineering problem, a mathematical problem, or an undefined hand-wavy problem, it's hard to know what his nonexistent math might apply to. He has said that IF a ship were going fast enough AND hit something large enough AND wasn't designed to handle this, the results would be catastrophic. So apparently we're not talking about scientific, mathematical, political or economic problems, but rather we are assuming that the engineering challenges will forever lie beyond us. And this despite Voyager 1 currently 120AU out where collisions are vanishingly rare, and going strong.

For practical purposes, it's entirely possible (and has been done!) to initiate interstellar travel, and both Voyager 1 and 2 are doing exactly that. I think everyone by now understands the issues, the current possibilities, and the likely or unlikely possibilities in the future. Everyone here has always understood that Jorge's approach to the modern world consists of angry and confused denial.

[rogue06]

I think a lot of this is about how evolutionist's often expect to find intelligent life out there, which is something that is not really compatible with the Bible(remember the thread where Ansgar Seraph was talking about E.T.'s and futuristic robots needing salvation?). I could be wrong, but I think that a lot of this has to do with the idea that life evolved elsewhere, and the fantasy of encountering it through space travel.

I think a lot of Jorge's resistance to things like naturally forming stars, extra-solar planets and inter-stellar space travel is because he is terrified that they might somehow adversely affect his faith. I sincerely hope that isn't the case for it would definitely reveal a very shallow faith.

[phank]

I think a lot of this is about how evolutionist's often expect to find intelligent life out there, which is something that is not really compatible with the Bible(remember the thread where Ansgar Seraph was talking about E.T.'s and futuristic robots needing salvation?). I could be wrong, but I think that a lot of this has to do with the idea that life evolved elsewhere, and the fantasy of encountering it through space travel.

This may be a misunderstanding. Most science fiction that includes interstellar travel has no concern with, or mention of, "life out there", intelligent or not. Space Opera is concerned with HUMAN exploration, politics, engineering, etc. Where intelligent aliens are encountered, most of them are exactly like the Star Trek aliens - humans painted green and given funny names. Whether life exists elsewhere is speculative, but it seems not unlikely. Whether intelligent life exists elsewhere is not really knowable, but evidence on Earth suggests that intelligence arises extremely rarely, and is NOT a survival characteristic for the species over time.

[Cerebrum123]

This may be a misunderstanding. Most science fiction that includes interstellar travel has no concern with, or mention of, "life out there", intelligent or not. Space Opera is concerned with HUMAN exploration, politics, engineering, etc. Where intelligent aliens are encountered, most of them are exactly like the Star Trek aliens - humans painted green and given funny names. Whether life exists elsewhere is speculative, but it seems not unlikely. Whether intelligent life exists elsewhere is not really knowable, but evidence on Earth suggests that intelligence arises extremely rarely, and is NOT a survival characteristic for the species over time.

I was speculating on Jorge's reason for posting this thread, not on what is actually out there. Also, it seems rather common for evolutionist's theistic or not, to believe that since life evolved here, then it must have somewhere out there as well. Again, this was mostly speculation on WHY Jorge is concerned about this, and I could be wrong, I will wait for Jorge's opinion.