Hawking's Grand Design

[lao tzu]

On the other hand, over 500 primary witnesses who all saw me murder her husband would be strong enough to convict.

We don't have 500 primary witnesses, so I wonder why you keep bringing this up.

[Soyeong]

We don't have 500 primary witnesses, so I wonder why you keep bringing this up.

That's irrelevant to my point, so I wonder why you are bring this up.

[firstfloor]

The witness has 2nd hand evidence (that someone else told her) and circumstantial evidence (that I don't have an alibi) that can be interpreted to support the case that I murdered her husband. However, like any other 2nd hand evidence and circumstantial evidence, it is not strong enough to support a guilty verdict, even if it happened to be the case that I am guilty. On the other hand, over 500 primary witnesses who all saw me murder her husband would be strong enough to convict.

I am sorry to see you struggle with that one. By the end of the eighteenth century people have learned that prophesies and supernatural visitations are easily counterfeited. What do they do about it? – they stop burning witches.
Unfortunately for Christians they are stuck with this moral conundrum because they hold that The Bible is eternally true.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?!

[Soyeong]

I am sorry to see you struggle with that one. By the end of the eighteenth century people have learned that prophesies and supernatural visitations are easily counterfeited. What do they do about it? – they stop burning witches.
Unfortunately for Christians they are stuck with this moral conundrum because they hold that The Bible is eternally true.

It seems like you really have trouble sticking with a point, which is why I tried pressuring you into admitting you were wrong about the previous point before moving on. I was talking about the strength of different evidence and how each claim needs to be evaluated on it's own, regardless of whether the outcome favors you. I don't really see how your response was related to what I said.

[Mountain Man]

By the end of the eighteenth century people have learned that prophesies and supernatural visitations are easily counterfeited.

People were aware of that long before the eighteenth century.

[firstfloor]

I was talking about the strength of different evidence and how each claim needs to be evaluated on it's own, regardless of whether the outcome favors you.

That’s good. We seem to agree on something. I am currently deep into Isaiah – the restoration of the Davidic King. The fulfillment of prophesy is very important to Christianity and Judaism. The picture emerging is that Jesus has to return because He failed to fulfill the prophecies at His first attempt (Justin/Trypho dialogue is very significant). The question then is that if the prophecies are still unfulfilled, why would you think that Jesus is the messiah? The Jews, of course, don’t think that. I am listening to a lot of new stuff (Cohen) and it’s quite difficult to get the overall picture clear in my mind.

[Soyeong]

[quote=firstfloor;3424837]That’s good. We seem to agree on something. I am currently deep into Isaiah – the restoration of the Davidic King. The fulfillment of prophesy is very important to Christianity and Judaism. The picture emerging is that Jesus has to return because He failed to fulfill the prophecies at His first attempt (Justin/Trypho dialogue is very significant).
In order to say that Jesus failed to fulfill a prophecy the first time around, you need to show that it was his intention to fulfill it then and he did not succeed. Otherwise it could simply be the case that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies that he intended to fulfill and left prophecies that were referring to a later time to a later time.

The question then is that if the prophecies are still unfulfilled, why would you think that Jesus is the messiah?

Many prophecies have been fulfilled, so is it not unreasonable to think that the track record will continue?

The Jews, of course, don’t think that.

Of course, many Messianic Jews do think that.