Jesus questions for mormons

[Sparko]

OK in the "can you be a God" thread, Jeff used a standard explanation that I have heard before that we are God's children who will one day "grow up" and become Gods ourselves, just like Heavenly Father did on some previous planet. and I thought this might be better for a separate thread because I have a couple of questions about Jesus.

1. The Mormons say that Jesus is the example of what the Father went through on his planet, and they use verses like Jesus can only do what he saw the Father doing, and so on. So that sounds like the Father was the Jesus on his planet, and he had a heavenly Father that sent him down to die for his children and was sinless, etc. OK?

so... If that is the case, why do Mormons think that THEY can become Gods? They argue that the Heavenly Father has always been sinless because that is what Jesus was/is. Yet THEY are not sinless. So why believe that a sinner can become a full-fledged God?


2. Why did we forget who we were when we were born on Earth? Why not let us remember? is it something "built-in" to being born? and why did Jesus remember who He was? Why didn't HE forget?

[Cow Poke]

[Bill the Cat]

OK in the "can you be a God" thread, Jeff used a standard explanation that I have heard before that we are God's children who will one day "grow up" and become Gods ourselves, just like Heavenly Father did on some previous planet. and I thought this might be better for a separate thread because I have a couple of questions about Jesus.

1. The Mormons say that Jesus is the example of what the Father went through on his planet, and they use verses like Jesus can only do what he saw the Father doing, and so on. So that sounds like the Father was the Jesus on his planet, and he had a heavenly Father that sent him down to die for his children and was sinless, etc. OK?

so... If that is the case, why do Mormons think that THEY can become Gods? They argue that the Heavenly Father has always been sinless because that is what Jesus was/is. Yet THEY are not sinless. So why believe that a sinner can become a full-fledged God?


2. Why did we forget who we were when we were born on Earth? Why not let us remember? is it something "built-in" to being born? and why did Jesus remember who He was? Why didn't HE forget?

And why did Jesus indicate that only HE came down from heaven:

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

[onefour1]

OK in the "can you be a God" thread, Jeff used a standard explanation that I have heard before that we are God's children who will one day "grow up" and become Gods ourselves, just like Heavenly Father did on some previous planet. and I thought this might be better for a separate thread because I have a couple of questions about Jesus.

1. The Mormons say that Jesus is the example of what the Father went through on his planet, and they use verses like Jesus can only do what he saw the Father doing, and so on. So that sounds like the Father was the Jesus on his planet, and he had a heavenly Father that sent him down to die for his children and was sinless, etc. OK?

so... If that is the case, why do Mormons think that THEY can become Gods? They argue that the Heavenly Father has always been sinless because that is what Jesus was/is. Yet THEY are not sinless. So why believe that a sinner can become a full-fledged God?

Well, that is not necessarily the case. Though it is believed by many, it is not a doctrine that God the Father was a savior on his own planet and a sinless mortal. Many in the church have speculated that because the verse says that the Son only does that which he sees the father do, or to be more precise;
John 5:19
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

that this means that the Father, throughout eternity has only done that which the Son does. It could be the case but we do not know it for a certainty. But whether this is the case or not, there are other verses in LDS scripture that tell us the we can become like God:

Doctrine and Covenants 132:20
20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

2. Why did we forget who we were when we were born on Earth? Why not let us remember? is it something "built-in" to being born? and why did Jesus remember who He was? Why didn't HE forget?

I believe that God took away our remembrance of the premortal existence so that we could learn to walk by faith. It is essential for a being to learn to be a good person in and of himself. For this reason we are given free will and the opportunity to prove ourselves to be a good being without an overwhelming influence from God. God is raising his children to become like himself. Nobody tells God what to do. He does everything that he does of his own free will. He is a good being who only does good of his own choosing. For us to become like him, God has seen fit to put us in a state of forgetfulness regarding our premortal existence and is testing us to see if we will seek after good of our own volition. There is an old saying that When the cats away, the mice will play. God wants to test us to prove ourselves worthy of becoming like him. He has put us in the postion of the Cat being away to see if we will still be good beings without his supervision. A truly good being will be good even when the cat is away. But he knows also that we are not perfect and will make mistakes. But if we have a good heart and seek after good and repent of our wicked ways, God loves us and wants us to make it so much that he was willing to provide a way for us to repent and gain forgiveness. He even sent us an example through our Lord Jesus to show us how to be good beings. So it all has to do with learning to become like God.

[Sparko]

Well, that is not necessarily the case. Though it is believed by many, it is not a doctrine that God the Father was a savior on his own planet and a sinless mortal. Many in the church have speculated that because the verse says that the Son only does that which he sees the father do, or to be more precise;
John 5:19
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

that this means that the Father, throughout eternity has only done that which the Son does. It could be the case but we do not know it for a certainty. But whether this is the case or not, there are other verses in LDS scripture that tell us the we can become like God:

Doctrine and Covenants 132:20
20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

and you also claim that the Father never sinned don't you? Jesus never sinned, right?

I believe that God took away our remembrance of the premortal existence so that we could learn to walk by faith. It is essential for a being to learn to be a good person in and of himself. For this reason we are given free will and the opportunity to prove ourselves to be a good being without an overwhelming influence from God. God is raising his children to become like himself. Nobody tells God what to do. He does everything that he does of his own free will. He is a good being who only does good of his own choosing. For us to become like him, God has seen fit to put us in a state of forgetfulness regarding our premortal existence and is testing us to see if we will seek after good of our own volition. There is an old saying that When the cats away, the mice will play. God wants to test us to prove ourselves worthy of becoming like him. He has put us in the postion of the Cat being away to see if we will still be good beings without his supervision. A truly good being will be good even when the cat is away. But he knows also that we are not perfect and will make mistakes. But if we have a good heart and seek after good and repent of our wicked ways, God loves us and wants us to make it so much that he was willing to provide a way for us to repent and gain forgiveness. He even sent us an example through our Lord Jesus to show us how to be good beings. So it all has to do with learning to become like God.

God not revealing himself makes sense in the Christian worldview, where we use our free will during out lives to choose which "side" we want to be on. But in the Christian worldview, after you die, your decision is set. No changing it.

But your explanation doesn't jive given what the LDS believe. Because what purpose is there of making people forget premortal existence so they have to have faith and so on, when you also believe that after one dies they are given an entirely new chance to choose God, and at that point faith is not needed since they will be dead and will see for themselves what the truth is?

If they are going to know it all after they die and get another chance, then why make us forget our premortal life now while we are alive? It makes no sense.

[onefour1]

and you also claim that the Father never sinned don't you? Jesus never sinned, right?

Well, we don't really know whether the father sinned or not when he was experiencing mortality. If he were a Christ then he never sinned. If he did sin, we know with a perfect knowledge that he was redeemed from the fall and forgiven of all his sins. But we do know that Jesus never sinned.

God not revealing himself makes sense in the Christian worldview, where we use our free will during out lives to choose which "side" we want to be on. But in the Christian worldview, after you die, your decision is set. No changing it.

But your explanation doesn't jive given what the LDS believe. Because what purpose is there of making people forget premortal existence so they have to have faith and so on, when you also believe that after one dies they are given an entirely new chance to choose God, and at that point faith is not needed since they will be dead and will see for themselves what the truth is?

If they are going to know it all after they die and get another chance, then why make us forget our premortal life now while we are alive? It makes no sense.

After man dies, he/she goes to the spirit world. while in the spirit world, if they have not had a chance to receive the gospel in this life, they are given a chance in the world of spirits. At this time they are not in the presence of God. After Jesus was cruxified and before his resurrrection, he went to the world of spirits and organized the spirits who were righeous and sent them among the spirits who have not heard the gospel. It is in this world of spirits that those who never had a chance to receive the gospel are given a chance.

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1 Peter 4:6
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

At some point, either in the first or second resurrection, once man is resurrected, he will be judged according to his works in this world and then it will be determined which kingdom he will inherit. Only those who inherit the kingdom of heaven will enjoy the presence of the Father.

I don't believe that those who have had a chance in this life will gain a second chance in the world of spirits. I believe that only those who haven't had the opportunity to hear the gospel will be given a chance. President Joseph F. Smith received a revelation when studying the verses above regarding the redemption of the dead ( see D&C 138)

[Cow Poke]

Well, we don't really know whether the father sinned or not when he was experiencing mortality.

Since God was never a mortal, we don't have to worry about that. It's only when we take a convoluted approach to God that we come up with these problems.

[Bill the Cat]

After man dies, he/she goes to the spirit world. while in the spirit world, if they have not had a chance to receive the gospel in this life, they are given a chance in the world of spirits.

By who? Who preaches the Gospel to the spirits?

At this time they are not in the presence of God.

So, God is not omnipresent?

After Jesus was cruxified and before his resurrrection, he went to the world of spirits and organized the spirits who were righeous and sent them among the spirits who have not heard the gospel.

Luk 16:26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'

It is in this world of spirits that those who never had a chance to receive the gospel are given a chance.

So, Jesus Himself told a lie in the Lazarus and the rich man parable?

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Please show that any of these spirits subsequently got saved, or that it was the Gospel that Jesus proclaimed to the spirits in prison.

1 Peter 4:6
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

This refers to those who had believed and subsequently died before Peter's epistle was written.

Albert Barnes

It was natural, in such a connection, to refer to those who had died in the faith, and to show, for their encouragement, that though they had been put to death, yet they still lived to God. He therefore says, that the design in publishing the gospel to them was, that though they might be judged by people in the usual manner, and put to death, yet that in respect to their higher and nobler nature, the spirit, they might live unto God. It was not uncommon nor unnatural for the apostles, in writing to those who were suffering persecution, to refer to those who had been removed by death, and to make their condition and example an argument for fidelity and perseverance. Compare 1Th_4:13; Rev_14:13.

© source where applicable

At some point, either in the first or second resurrection, once man is resurrected, he will be judged according to his works in this world and then it will be determined which kingdom he will inherit. Only those who inherit the kingdom of heaven will enjoy the presence of the Father.

There are only 2 kingdoms. Heaven and the lake of fire.

I don't believe that those who have had a chance in this life will gain a second chance in the world of spirits. I believe that only those who haven't had the opportunity to hear the gospel will be given a chance. President Joseph F. Smith received a revelation when studying the verses above regarding the redemption of the dead ( see D&C 138)

So, you agree with me that Gandhi will not receive a second chance?

[Sparko]

Well, we don't really know whether the father sinned or not when he was experiencing mortality. If he were a Christ then he never sinned. If he did sin, we know with a perfect knowledge that he was redeemed from the fall and forgiven of all his sins. But we do know that Jesus never sinned.

and so if Jesus can only do what the Father did, then if the Father was a sinner, then Jesus would have been too, right?

I don't believe that those who have had a chance in this life will gain a second chance in the world of spirits. I believe that only those who haven't had the opportunity to hear the gospel will be given a chance. President Joseph F. Smith received a revelation when studying the verses above regarding the redemption of the dead ( see D&C 138)

I haven't heard any other LDS say that.

So, basically the smart thing to do would be to NOT share the gospel with anyone in this life, where there is a greater chance to reject it. That way everyone will get the chance after they die to accept the gospel, when they will find out it is true and won't have to guess any more.

Right?

[onefour1]

By who? Who preaches the Gospel to the spirits?

Those who are dead that are righteous spirits. Jesus organized them to go to those who have not yet received the message of the gospel. (see D&C 138)

So, God is not omnipresent?

What I mean by not being in his presence is not being in the presence of his body and the fullness of his glory. Sure we on lesser spheres have a portion of God's spirit, but we do not enjoy at this time the opportunity to live in his physical presence with his body and the fullness of his glory. That is only reserved for those who enter the kingdom of heaven. (see D&C 76)

Luk 16:26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'

This verse is not speaking of the world of spirits but of the state of the individual after being resurrected and inheriting the kingdom he is worthy to receive.

So, Jesus Himself told a lie in the Lazarus and the rich man parable?

no, see above

Please show that any of these spirits subsequently got saved, or that it was the Gospel that Jesus proclaimed to the spirits in prison.

What good would it do for Jesus to preach unto the dead if the dead have no hope of being saved? (see 1 Peter 4:6) How fair is it that those who had no opportunity to recieve the gospel should be consigned to not be able to live in the kingdom of heaven?

This refers to those who had believed and subsequently died before Peter's epistle was written.

Albert Barnes

It was natural, in such a connection, to refer to those who had died in the faith, and to show, for their encouragement, that though they had been put to death, yet they still lived to God. He therefore says, that the design in publishing the gospel to them was, that though they might be judged by people in the usual manner, and put to death, yet that in respect to their higher and nobler nature, the spirit, they might live unto God. It was not uncommon nor unnatural for the apostles, in writing to those who were suffering persecution, to refer to those who had been removed by death, and to make their condition and example an argument for fidelity and perseverance. Compare 1Th_4:13; Rev_14:13.

© source where applicable

With all due respect, I do not recognize Mr Barnes as one having authority.

There are only 2 kingdoms. Heaven and the lake of fire.

I don't believe that.

So, you agree with me that Gandhi will not receive a second chance?

I don't know the history of Gandhi, but if he has never received the gospel of Jesus Christ by one who is authorized to preach it, then I would guess that he would be entitled to a first chance.

[Cerebrum123]

[Sparko]

What good would it do for Jesus to preach unto the dead if the dead have no hope of being saved? (see 1 Peter 4:6) How fair is it that those who had no opportunity to recieve the gospel should be consigned to not be able to live in the kingdom of heaven?

He wasn't preaching the gospel, he was proclaiming his victory.

[onefour1]

and so if Jesus can only do what the Father did, then if the Father was a sinner, then Jesus would have been too, right?

Well, I don't know if that scripture is referring to everything that the father ever did or not. If so, then the Father would have been a Savior. If not, then the verse does not necessarily apply to everything the Father ever did in his entire existence. It could be that the father showed Jesus what to do in Jesus' mortal existence through a vision of some sort. We just don't know for sure what is behind the verse.

I haven't heard any other LDS say that.

So, basically the smart thing to do would be to NOT share the gospel with anyone in this life, where there is a greater chance to reject it. That way everyone will get the chance after they die to accept the gospel, when they will find out it is true and won't have to guess any more.

Right?

I don't believe that all the guess work is necessarily taken out of the equation when we enter the spirit world. I don't think that those who have not yet received the gospel are in the presence of the Father and receive a fullness of his glory. I believe the spirit world is here on this earth and that the main difference is that we no longer have bodies and we don't experience the same things that our mortal bodies experience in this life.

[onefour1]

He wasn't preaching the gospel, he was proclaiming his victory.

Well, Christ didn't actually go to spirit prison and preach. He organized the righteous spririts in paradise to go unto those in spirit prison to preach the gospel. Thus the gospel was preached unto those who were dead.

1 Peter 4:6
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

[Chrawnus]

Well, Christ didn't actually go to spirit prison and preach. He organized the righteous spririts in paradise to go unto those in spirit prison to preach the gospel. Thus the gospel was preached unto those who were dead.

1 Peter 4:6
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

I've always understood that verse to be speaking of people who heard the gospel being preached to them when they were alive and became Christians, but who were dead when Peter wrote his letter.