Jesus questions for mormons

[Bill the Cat]

Exhibit A: Ed Decker, your favorite.

He warns the church about the wishy washy doctrines of Joel Osteen. Tha't a good work if I ever saw one!

[nrajeff]

right Jeff, Obedience and following the commandments and doing works of the law.

Did you know that the phrase "The works of The Law" almost always referred to the legalistic Mosaic rules in the Torah? News flash: LDS don't have to follow the law requiring all those OT feasts, purification rituals, and animal sacrifices. So you might want to "modify" your argument so it reflects reality.

Those are all works. You are performing works for God in order to earn your salvation, when all God asks for is your belief.

Why do Calvinists insist on thinking that obedience is optional?

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

I bolded the three possible things that "the gift of God" in that verse has to be referring to: grace, being saved, or faith.

Apparently, the vast majority of Calvinists jump to the conclusion that the gift in question is FAITH. But isn't there at least a 66% probability that it actually refers to either grace or being saved (aren't THEY gifts, too?) And if so, doesn't that require a rethinking of the verse and its ramifications?

Then we can do works after we are saved...

Why not just use the word obedience? You seem afraid to actually use the right term. Obeying God is FAR more than just doing good deeds--that was what the Pharisees were too blind to realize . Jesus' commandments are sweeping--they go way beyond doing stuff, and include NOT doing certain things. They also include being things, not just DOING things: Being humble, peaceable, spiritual, and non-hypocritical, and the reasons WHY a person does those dreaded "works." Every time you blurt out the "works" talking point, you ignore a lot of what obedience to Christ actually entails. And that does an injustice to the people you are trying like hell to belittle.

[Cow Poke]

Jesus' commandments are sweeping--they go way beyond doing stuff, and include NOT doing certain things. They also include being things, not just DOING things: Being humble, peaceable, spiritual, and non-hypocritical....

Don't tell us. Show us.

[nrajeff]

He may have done some stupid things in your opinion, but do you KNOW that he never did ANY "good works"...?

How many does he need to do in order to qualify? Is there a quota? Is one good work in one's lifetime enough? The thief on the cross, according to you guys, did zero good works, and got OSAS'd in his last minutes of life. Correct?

[Bill the Cat]

Did you know that the phrase "The works of The Law" almost always referred to the legalistic Mosaic rules in the Torah? News flash: LDS don't have to follow the law requiring all those OT feasts, purification rituals, and animal sacrifices. So you might want to "modify" your argument so it reflects reality.

One can only do good works (i.e produce good fruit) if they are grafted into the true vine (Jesus - who offers Salvation). Any work done is either bad fruit from not being saved or good fruit from being part of the tree. Good fruit is a result of being connected to the ONLY one who is good. No amount of our own fruit will qualify us to be grafted into Christ. One only needs to BE a branch, and everyone is a branch. Only those who accept the offer to be grafted in will be grafted in, and not based on the previous fruit they bore.

Why do Calvinists insist on thinking that obedience is optional?

Why do you assume they are Calvinist? In fact, Calvinists believe that God will cause you to obey Him. It's the "I" in TULIP

I bolded the three possible things that "the gift of God" in that verse has to be referring to: grace, being saved, or faith.

Often times in Greek, when a writer wants to refer to a whole idea, he will use the neuter gender. So the antecedent of the demonstrative pronoun 'that' in this passage is actually pointing to the whole idea "For by grace are you saved through faith."
http://www.theeffectivetruth.info/eph28.html

The entire process of Salvation is the gift of God.

Apparently, the vast majority of Calvinists jump to the conclusion that the gift in question is FAITH. But isn't there at least a 66% probability that it actually refers to either grace or being saved (aren't THEY gifts, too?) And if so, doesn't that require a rethinking of the verse and its ramifications?

Grace, Faith, and salvation are all gifts of God.

Why not just use the word obedience? You seem afraid to actually use the right term. Obeying God is FAR more than just doing good deeds--that was what the Pharisees were too blind to realize . Jesus' commandments are sweeping--they go way beyond doing stuff, and include NOT doing certain things. They also include being things, not just DOING things: Being humble, peaceable, spiritual, and non-hypocritical, and the reasons WHY a person does those dreaded "works." Every time you blurt out the "works" talking point, you ignore a lot of what obedience to Christ actually entails. And that does an injustice to the people you are trying like hell to belittle.

Again, as I pointed out above, obedience is a result of being in Christ, not a requirement of being grafted in. Can a branch resist bearing fruit if it is fully grafted into its tree? One can not truly obey what one is not a part of.

[nrajeff]

A serious theological problem arises from the overbroad interpretation of the term "works" adopted by Evangelicals. It is the question of whether or not faith itself is a work. Evangelicals admit that faith in Christ is necessary for salvation, yet it is a commandment of God to have faith in Christ (Matt. 23:23; Mark 11:22; 1 Tim 1:5; 6:11-12). Hence, if Men believe in Christ, they are obeying a commandment of God. Given Evangelical theology on this point, such obedience would have to be classified as a meritorious work, which cannot save according to the Evangelical position, thus overturning the entire Law of Faith!

To avoid this result, Evangelicals, such as John MacArthur, claim that "faith is a gift of God, not a work of man." For this proposition Pastor MacArthur cites Ephesians 2:1-5 and 8. However, those verses contain nothing that supports his thesis. • Edited by a Moderator •

Moderated By: rogue06

Waaaay too much copy and paste. The rules state that you shouldn't copy any more than 7 to 8 sentences and provide a link (if there is one) or at least the source: http://www.angelfire.com/ga/kevgram3/faith.html

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[Cow Poke]

How many does he need to do in order to qualify? Is there a quota? Is one good work in one's lifetime enough?

Ask OC, Jeff -- he's the one who seems to be the expert on who did good works!

The thief on the cross, according to you guys, did zero good works, and got OSAS'd in his last minutes of life. Correct?

From what we can tell, the thief on the cross never sinned after he was saved, and was faithful to Jesus for the entire rest of his life.

Reminds me of my parachute joke! The nervous first-time parachutist was just about to jump out of the plane, but he yelled at his jumpmaster ... "Tell me one more time, Sarge... if my main chute doesn't open, HOW LONG do I have to pull my reserve chute?"

The Sergeant grinned and evil grin and replied, "The REST of your LIFE, son... the REST of your LIFE!"

[nrajeff]

• Edited by a Moderator •

Moderated By: rogue06

See notice at post #141

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[Cow Poke]

Jeff,

It looks like you copy pasta'd the opinion of a pro-Mormon blogger or somebody, and bolded a bunch of stuff.

[Bill the Cat]

A serious theological problem arises from the overbroad interpretation of the term "works" adopted by Evangelicals. It is the question of whether or not faith itself is a work. Evangelicals admit that faith in Christ is necessary for salvation, yet it is a commandment of God to have faith in Christ (Matt. 23:23; Mark 11:22; 1 Tim 1:5; 6:11-12). Hence, if Men believe in Christ, they are obeying a commandment of God. Given Evangelical theology on this point, such obedience would have to be classified as a meritorious work, which cannot save according to the Evangelical position, thus overturning the entire Law of Faith!

To avoid this result, Evangelicals, such as John MacArthur, claim that "faith is a gift of God, not a work of man." For this proposition Pastor MacArthur cites Ephesians 2:1-5 and 8. However, those verses contain nothing that supports his thesis. • Edited by a Moderator •

Kevin later admitted he opined a lot in these such articles.

[Bill the Cat]

Jeff,

It looks like you copy pasta'd the opinion of a pro-Mormon blogger or somebody, and bolded a bunch of stuff.

Kevin Graham wrote this opinion piece when he was still a Mormon. He's not now.

[Cow Poke]

Kevin Graham wrote this opinion piece when he was still a Mormon. He's not now.

Interesting. Thanks, Bill. Is he a Christian, or is he one of those who departed from Christ entirely?

[Bill the Cat]

Interesting. Thanks, Bill. Is he a Christian, or is he one of those who departed from Christ entirely?

Not real sure. He was a personal friend of JP Holding and last I heard Kevin was claiming to be a deist, and was working to have his and his wife's name removed from the Mormon membership list. He used to post on FAIR's board, but I've not checked in there for a year or so.

[Sparko]

Kevin is a former member of tweb. So I guess we can chalk one up for the antis.

He still stops by once in a while

[Cow Poke]

Kevin is a former member of tweb. So I guess we can chalk one up for the antis.

He still stops by once in a while

Would THIS be him?

The Ex-Mormon Forums

You can ridicule my apostasy all you want, but the timeline is indisputable. FAIR didn't want to touch the matter with a ten foot pole, even during my Mormonism 201 project. John Gee in 2000 couldn't get access to the KEP. There was simply no one who knew much about the topic. My concerns were met with advisement to just pray and have faith. This went on for several years until it became obvious that knowing Joseph Smith could not translate ancient documents started damaging my testimony. When people at the FAIR boards who had respected me and my apologetics for the previous 5-7 years started to show signs of concern as well, the powers that be realized at that point that they needed to start doing their own lobbying for apologetic help on the matter before more and more people started falling away. • Edited by a Moderator •.

© source where applicable

Moderated By: rogue06

It doesn't help when you C&P too much as well

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