Jesus questions for mormons

[OtherCheek]

Like I showed above, it's not necessary, it's a VERY good thing to do, and is a public symbol of our acceptance of Christ, but it's not something that saves us. Just as I pointed out the thief on the cross never got baptized, and he is in heaven RIGHT NOW.

First of all, you know KNOW that the thief on the cross was never baptized. You simply surmise that.
Second, Paradise is not the same as heaven. Heaven is a state where the purified and resurrected righteous dwell and you don't KNOW that the thief is resurrected and you do not know that the thief is in heaven--in the Mansions of the Father. You only surmise that.

LDS believe that baptism is not a pre-requisite for paradise, but rather a pre-requisite for heaven.

[Cow Poke]

This is doctrine:
Article of Faith #9
9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

I'll just leave it at that.

I see "doctrine" as the overall body of what an organization believes and teaches, and I think the dictionary definition supports that. Even in your examples, I don't think Jesus was talking about a "specific teaching" when he referred to "doctrine", but the overall body of teachings and beliefs.

But we can have different interpretations of what "doctrine" is, generally.

I believe, however, your "doctrine" HAS changed, and I believe this is supported by one of your Church's historians in The Reconstruction of Mormon Doctrine as reported in Sunstone Magazine. IF those changes in your Church's doctrine were "under the Lord's direction", I would think it quite odd that "the Lord" revealed Himself to your Church as a member of the Trinity in the earlier years, then "clarified" that to where He is NOT a member of the Trinity. Even the earlier account of Joseph Smith's "first vision" wasn't as "non-Trinitatian" as your Church is today.

[nrajeff]

That wasn't an attack, I was really wondering about that, since earlier I had heard that LDS believe that Jesus has always been a god.

You don't get it: It wasn't THAT statement that was the attack--it was PREVIOUS posts, where you made ASSERTIONS as if they are FACTS, that I was referring to. Examples:

"the BoM is just a work of fiction that has pagan polytheistic notions in it. That, and it basically contradicts Biblical doctrine in significant ways."

or

"The problem is Jeff, that I can back up my statement, and I have to look no further than LDS doctrine and history. " (Makes it look as if you are familiar with LDS doctrine, when your recent "confession" shows you don't.)

or

"...LDS when you really look at it believes pretty much the OPPOSITE of what the Christ taught when it comes to doctrine..."

(Apparently, "when it comes to doctrine and history," you condemned it before you had really looked at it)

Then, you made the statement in question, revealing that your previous statements--the ones that WERE attacks--may not have been made from a sound knowledge base. And thus my comment.


IMO, it does your credibility no good when you make certitude-laden, arrogant statements such as "Your beliefs are pagan and non-Christian" instead of, at the very least, qualifying your attacks as "In my opinion," etc. That way, you don't appear as someone who thinks he knows for sure things that it's very unlikely he actually knows for sure.

So, I will put in the form of a question. So, according to LDS did Jesus have to "work His way up" to being a god?

LDS doctrine is that Jesus is God's firstborn, who excelled---ages ago--in learning, wisdom, and obedience to God, to the point that even before the creation of Earth, He already had godlike powers. About the only area where He and His Father differed was that Jesus had yet to undergo mortality and resurrection. Now He is like His Father in that regard, too.

And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
Luke 2:51-52

[Cow Poke]

And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
Luke 2:51-52

Actually, that's just verse 52.

But, just for fun, let's CEV it...

Scripture Verse:

Luke 2:51-52 Contemporary English Version (CEV)
51 Jesus went back to Nazareth with his parents and obeyed them. His mother kept on thinking about all that had happened. 52 Jesus became wise, and he grew strong. God was pleased with him and so were the people.

We know that God continued to be pleased with Jesus --- the people, not so much.

"godlike" powers? What would these "godlike powers" be? How does that differ from "equal with God"?

[nrajeff]

"godlike" powers?

Yes: Powers that are like the powers that God has.

What would these "godlike powers" be?

The power to create worlds. To do miracles such as heal, raise the dead back to life, control the elements such as storms. To forgive people's sins as God is able to do. And much more.

How does that differ from "equal with God"?

LDS doctrine is that during the time span mentioned in the historical scriptures, Jesus had not yet been given God's power to create spirits, for example. To have a Firstborn Son of His own. Jesus inherits the FULNESS of His Father's kingdom, including ALL God's powers and abilities, after He has accomplished their plans for this world, and made it His Father's footstool. Jesus still has work to do for His Father, because the end is not here yet. Judgment Day is in the future. Lots to do before then.

That is about all the elaboration I in inclined to provide to someone who doesn't seem to have a sincere desire to learn, but instead seems to merely be looking for things to ridicule.

[Cow Poke]

Yes: Powers that are like the powers that God has.


The power to create worlds. To do miracles such as heal, raise the dead back to life, control the elements such as storms. To forgive people's sins as God is able to do. And much more.


LDS doctrine is that during the time span mentioned in the historical scriptures, Jesus had not yet been given God's power to create spirits, for example. To have a Firstborn Son of His own. Jesus inherits the FULNESS of His Father's kingdom, including ALL God's powers and abilities, after He has accomplished their plans for this world, and made it His Father's footstool. Jesus still has work to do for His Father, because the end is not here yet. Judgment Day is in the future. Lots to do before then.

I find nothing to ridicule there, Jeff --- that answered my question. I don't AGREE with it, but it answered my question.

That is about all the elaboration I in inclined to provide to someone who doesn't seem to have a sincere desire to learn, but instead seems to merely be looking for things to ridicule.

Of course, you just can't help yourself. Poor widdle Jeffie, seldom missing an opportunity to feel persecuted.

[Cerebrum123]

You don't get it: It wasn't THAT statement that was the attack--it was PREVIOUS posts, where you made ASSERTIONS as if they are FACTS, that I was referring to. Examples:

"the BoM is just a work of fiction that has pagan polytheistic notions in it. That, and it basically contradicts Biblical doctrine in significant ways."

or

"The problem is Jeff, that I can back up my statement, and I have to look no further than LDS doctrine and history. " (Makes it look as if you are familiar with LDS doctrine, when your recent "confession" shows you don't.)

or

"...LDS when you really look at it believes pretty much the OPPOSITE of what the Christ taught when it comes to doctrine..."

(Apparently, "when it comes to doctrine and history," you condemned it before you had really looked at it)

Then, you made the statement in question, revealing that your previous statements--the ones that WERE attacks--may not have been made from a sound knowledge base. And thus my comment.


IMO, it does your credibility no good when you make certitude-laden, arrogant statements such as "Your beliefs are pagan and non-Christian" instead of, at the very least, qualifying your attacks as "In my opinion," etc. That way, you don't appear as someone who thinks he knows for sure things that it's very unlikely he actually knows for sure.


LDS doctrine is that Jesus is God's firstborn, who excelled---ages ago--in learning, wisdom, and obedience to God, to the point that even before the creation of Earth, He already had godlike powers. About the only area where He and His Father differed was that Jesus had yet to undergo mortality and resurrection. Now He is like His Father in that regard, too.

And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
Luke 2:51-52

Those aren't attacks, those are statements based on what you and other LDS, along with what I do KNOW about LDS ACTUALLY SAYS. So, I get confused on one tiny little LDS belief, and all of a sudden ALL of my credibility is called into question? Also, can you show how my statements above were untrue? Oh, and thanks for clarifying that little confusion I had there(I am sure that I had seen a Mormon on here say that Jesus had always been a god, but I will have to look for it). Also, if it was THOSE statements that you had such a problem with, then why did you leave them out when you first said that my one statement was an attack?

[Chrawnus]

Those aren't attacks, those are statements based on what you and other LDS, along with what I do KNOW about LDS ACTUALLY SAYS. So, I get confused on one tiny little LDS belief, and all of a sudden ALL of my credibility is called into question? Also, can you show how my statements above were untrue? Oh, and thanks for clarifying that little confusion I had there(I am sure that I had seen a Mormon on here say that Jesus had always been a god, but I will have to look for it). Also, if it was THOSE statements that you had such a problem with, then why did you leave them out when you first said that my one statement was an attack?

Damage control.

[Sparko]

That's the problem with some anti-LDS people: They attack before they really understand what it is they are attacking.

Really? So either Jesus wasn't Jehovah in the OT, or you are saying Jehovah wasn't a God?

[Cow Poke]

You don't get it: It wasn't THAT statement that was the attack--it was PREVIOUS posts, where you made ASSERTIONS as if they are FACTS, that I was referring to. Examples:

"the BoM is just a work of fiction that has pagan polytheistic notions in it. That, and it basically contradicts Biblical doctrine in significant ways."

or

"The problem is Jeff, that I can back up my statement, and I have to look no further than LDS doctrine and history. " (Makes it look as if you are familiar with LDS doctrine, when your recent "confession" shows you don't.)

or

"...LDS when you really look at it believes pretty much the OPPOSITE of what the Christ taught when it comes to doctrine..."

No, Jeff... here's what went down....

I thought that LDS believed that Jesus started out as a god, and didn't have to "work His way up".

That's the problem with some anti-LDS people: They attack before they really understand what it is they are attacking.

Your "attack" nonsense was a direct response to Brum's post as shown. If you meant "the other stuff", you should have "quoted" and responded to "the other stuff.

[Sparko]

You don't get it: It wasn't THAT statement that was the attack--it was PREVIOUS posts, where you made ASSERTIONS as if they are FACTS, that I was referring to. Examples:

"the BoM is just a work of fiction that has pagan polytheistic notions in it. That, and it basically contradicts Biblical doctrine in significant ways."

or

"The problem is Jeff, that I can back up my statement, and I have to look no further than LDS doctrine and history. " (Makes it look as if you are familiar with LDS doctrine, when your recent "confession" shows you don't.)

or

"...LDS when you really look at it believes pretty much the OPPOSITE of what the Christ taught when it comes to doctrine..."

(Apparently, "when it comes to doctrine and history," you condemned it before you had really looked at it)

Then, you made the statement in question, revealing that your previous statements--the ones that WERE attacks--may not have been made from a sound knowledge base. And thus my comment.


IMO, it does your credibility no good when you make certitude-laden, arrogant statements such as "Your beliefs are pagan and non-Christian" instead of, at the very least, qualifying your attacks as "In my opinion," etc. That way, you don't appear as someone who thinks he knows for sure things that it's very unlikely he actually knows for sure.


LDS doctrine is that Jesus is God's firstborn, who excelled---ages ago--in learning, wisdom, and obedience to God, to the point that even before the creation of Earth, He already had godlike powers. About the only area where He and His Father differed was that Jesus had yet to undergo mortality and resurrection. Now He is like His Father in that regard, too.

And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
Luke 2:51-52

jehovah was just god-LIKE?????

Really?

I thought that he created the world and everything in it? (John 1, Col 1) Then he ran the world, then he died for the world, and soon he will judge the world.

Since the Father is a separate God in LDS doctrine, exactly what did he even do other than act as a stud to create the spirit bodies of everyone? Heavenly Father and Mother were just basically a spirit baby factory. After that the heavenly Father just seems to sit on his tuckus and let Jesus do everything. And you say he was just god-LIKE????

[OtherCheek]

jehovah was just god-LIKE?????

Really?

I thought that he created the world and everything in it? (John 1, Col 1)

Jeff mentioned this. And yes Jesus was always God-like from before the foundation of the earth, and was foreordained because of his pre-eminence and being like unto the Father in all things. (Except for having a resurrected body).

Since the Father is a separate God in LDS doctrine,

The Father is not conjoined with the Son in their essence, more accurately. But they are ONE God in every other conceivable and inconceivable manner--except being of the one essence as essence is defined by the creeds.

exactly what did he even do other than act as a stud to create the spirit bodies of everyone? Heavenly Father and Mother were just basically a spirit baby factory. After that the heavenly Father just seems to sit on his tuckus and let Jesus do everything. And you say he was just god-LIKE????

That's a clown question, bro. And you are the clown.

[nrajeff]

I find nothing to ridicule there, Jeff --- that answered my question. I don't AGREE with it, but it answered my question.

The thread hasn't reached its end yet. Let's see if you continue to find nothing to ridicule.

Of course, you just can't help yourself.

I can help myself, but in this case it's not me I want to help-- I am trying to help the lurkers see the real face of anti-LDSism.

Poor widdle Jeffie, seldom missing an opportunity to feel persecuted.

"You have NO IDEA what REAL persecution is! Why, when I was your age..."

[Cow Poke]

The thread hasn't reached its end yet. Let's see if you continue to find nothing to ridicule.

Let's see if you continue to whine.

I can help myself, but in this case it's not me I want to help-- I am trying to help the lurkers see the real face of anti-LDSism.

No, Jeff... you can't help yourself. And you're helping the lurkers see PLENTY!

[nrajeff]

Really? So either Jesus wasn't Jehovah in the OT, or you are saying Jehovah wasn't a God?

I'll take "False dichotomies" for $200, Alex. LDS doctrine is that Jesus was Jehovah in OT, AND is a God. In OT times, He was the God of Israel, and He was a spirit, since He had yet to become mortal.

Maybe the part that you aren't getting, is that Jesus' existence dates back to BEFORE He was the God of Israel, BEFORE the world even existed. It's THAT part of His existence I was referring to.

Maybe you should just learn it from Gospel Principles.

http://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles?lang=eng

I don't pretend to be able to explain it better than it can.