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Civil Discourse

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  • Civil Discourse

    For the record, I have a dog in this fight. I can certainly be acerbic - and worse - at times. Usually when I'm not well - but that doesn't justify it.

    An argument stands or falls on its own merit - not on what creeps the opposition are, not on what soandso believes that has zero to do with the point, and not on what someone in your favorite blog said, no matter how pithy.

    The idea behind Freedom of Speech wasn't to let every blowhard have his day - that's just part of the price we pay for free speech. The idea was to promote and protect civil, public discourse. To let all sides have a voice in the matter - not merely the ones in power or favor.

    Tweb has always been rough and tumble - and that's okay, to a point. But it shouldn't be so hostile that we can't discuss our disagreements.

    Lately, we've all gotten pretty bad about this. It's hurting the site - but more importantly, it's hurting us.

    Not everyone who disagrees with you is an idiot. Not everyone who takes a position you dislike is evil. Not everyone that questions a position you hold dear is out to ruin America.

    Challenge, debate, discuss, argue - but don't deride, intimidate, dismiss, or inflame. Riposte is fine - as long as everyone is playing by the same rules. Otherwise, it's just glorified name calling.

    And seriously, no one can answer twenty different people in one thread - and they shouldn't have to - knock off the dog piling.

    There are some people that just can't argue with each other - when you know you're one of them, let the thing go. I KNOW how hard this is - really I do - but trashing each other accomplishes only bad feelings.

    Okay, so why is this in civics? Because that's where it belongs. The thread topic is Civil (Public) Discourse - what are the principles and what should they be?
    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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  • #2
    Need I remind you of my thread on the topic?
    I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

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    • #3
      Nope.


      I would like to see if we can get a serious discussion started, however.
      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

      My Personal Blog

      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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      • #4
        The issue is that generally anybody who's even willing to consider this perspective probably isn't the problem...
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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        • #5
          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
          The issue is that generally anybody who's even willing to consider this perspective probably isn't the problem...
          True enough.
          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

          My Personal Blog

          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

          Quill Sword

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          • #6
            Since this thread is about me, and I'm posting less, things should become much more civil.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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            • #7
              And another serious thread dies a lonely death...
              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

              My Personal Blog

              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

              Quill Sword

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              • #8
                Honestly? It's not just Tweb.

                Since the last Election, I can't even skim Facebook during a trip to the ol' Thunder Bucket without people going Full Tilt when it comes to Politics. Heck... the gaming chats I'm a part of- for the most part- have a strict, "No Politics or Religion," discussion rule simply because of how volatile the discussions can get.
                Have You Touched Grass Today? If Not, Please Do.

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                • #9
                  I heard a report on the radio about a couple guys who were arguing Star Trek vs Star Wars. One ended up in jail on assault charges.

                  I don't think it's just the topics, anymore.
                  "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                  "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                  My Personal Blog

                  My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                  Quill Sword

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                    I heard a report on the radio about a couple guys who were arguing Star Trek vs Star Wars. One ended up in jail on assault charges.

                    I don't think it's just the topics, anymore.
                    ... Somehow, given that most Fandoms are basically modern Cults, this doesn't surprise me.

                    ETA: Seriously... you ask someone about the nature of reality, they look at you like a deer in headlights. Ask that same person their thoughts about a particular aspect of a franchise, and you might get to witness a nuclear explosion first-hand.
                    Have You Touched Grass Today? If Not, Please Do.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                      I heard a report on the radio about a couple guys who were arguing Star Trek vs Star Wars. One ended up in jail on assault charges.

                      I don't think it's just the topics, anymore.
                      I read an article this week who was surprised to not find an equal level of rancor on both sides. He expected to find in the democratic party the same levels of vitriol he was used to seeing in the Republican party, and didn't. He seems amazed that even Bernie supporters who completely disagree with him on policy engage him in positive and respectful ways.
                      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                        I read an article this week who was surprised to not find an equal level of rancor on both sides. He expected to find in the democratic party the same levels of vitriol he was used to seeing in the Republican party, and didn't. He seems amazed that even Bernie supporters who completely disagree with him on policy engage him in positive and respectful ways.
                        And I'm surprised at THAT, because it's not the Republicans doing Occupy, BLM, Antifa, etc. I'm pretty sure Democrats Kirsten Powers and Juan Williams would both have plenty to say about the un-civil discourse from their own side.
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                          And I'm surprised at THAT, because it's not the Republicans doing Occupy, BLM, Antifa, etc.
                          Standing strongly for a cause is not the same as doing so uncharitably. It's possible to be strong and forthright in ones own views without over the top attacks on others.

                          Having observed US politics for some time now as an outsider, I would say that there is much much more of a "war" mentality among Republicans. For quite a while now a lot of right-wing outlets have deliberately cultivated an aggressive and partisan mentality among their followers. Anything is viewed as justifiable as long as their 'side' wins. That's very much not the case among democrats, not on the same scale, not even close.
                          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                            Standing strongly for a cause is not the same as doing so uncharitably. It's possible to be strong and forthright in ones own views without over the top attacks on others.

                            Having observed US politics for some time now as an outsider, I would say that there is much much more of a "war" mentality among Republicans. For quite a while now a lot of right-wing outlets have deliberately cultivated an aggressive and partisan mentality among their followers. Anything is viewed as justifiable as long as their 'side' wins. That's very much not the case among democrats, not on the same scale, not even close.
                            That perception may be coloured (the extra u is for moss) by the fact that the Republicans fight each other in addition to fighting the media and everybody else. The liberals circle the wagons and stick together, and they don't have to fight the media because they're both on the same side.

                            But, seriously, you defend the "occupy" crap?
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                              I read an article this week who was surprised to not find an equal level of rancor on both sides. He expected to find in the democratic party the same levels of vitriol he was used to seeing in the Republican party, and didn't. He seems amazed that even Bernie supporters who completely disagree with him on policy engage him in positive and respectful ways.
                              The Democratic National Convention is a rather glaring counter-example. The DNC had to work hard to drown out dissent from the Bernie wing at the time.
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