The Problem of Evil

[jethrorlz]

It would help if you press the "quote" button instead of the "reply" button when replying.

Please define "Universal Salvation" as you perceive the term.

Ah...I was wondering how to do that, thanks!

By universal salvation I mean that aside from Satan and apostates, all will acquire one of the three levels of heaven.

[OtherCheek]

Ah...I was wondering how to do that, thanks!

By universal salvation I mean that aside from Satan and apostates, all will acquire one of the three levels of heaven.

Close.

We believe that there are degrees of salvation and glory. The wicked will suffer for a time in hell (during the millennium) until the last resurrection before receiving their resurrection and salvation. The Sons of Perdition are only those who remain unrepentant through and after that time of suffering. They are the ones who have KNOWN the glory of God, and have denied and turned from it altogether. Those who cannot be brought to repentance. They must have held the Priesthood of God at one time. All Sons of Perdition, it can be said, will be this kind of apostate. That is not to say that all those who fall away from the Church will be Sons of Perdition.

Here is a q&a that seemed to address this question:

Are all excommunicated members of the Church classified as Sons of Perdition? Are all nonbelievers?

No.
First, in order to become a son of perdition, a person must hold the true priesthood of God. Since only male members of the Church can even hold the priesthood, only apostate Church members have the possibility of being classified as Sons of Perdition. Second, in order to be a son of perdition, a person must rebel against God with full light and knowledge that he is in fact doing so. Succumbing to temptation or a lack of faith is not sufficient. One must defy God with full knowledge that he is indeed God. It is impossible for us to name anyone as a son of perdition, barring any revelation from the Holy Ghost, for only God truly understands the intentions of a person. While most men and women will suffer the pains of hell for their wickedness, precious few have descended to the depths of open depravity which would classify them as Sons of Perdition.

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/b...dition_eom.htm

[onefour1]

I want to go back to OC's quote of Joseph Smith that the difference between our faith and others is the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost. The gift of the Holy Ghost bring justification and sanctification to the repentant sinner. Without it one cannot be sanctified by the spirit. The gift of the Holy Ghost can only be had through the laying on of hands of one having true authority from God. In other words the priesthood. Priesthood power is a higher manifestation of the Holy Ghost. Without the gift of the Holy Ghost, one cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The gift of the Holy Ghost teaches one of the peaceable things of the kingdom. It is through the Holy Ghost that inspiration and revelation are received. It is a gift to those that believe and are baptized by one having authority. Through the gift of the Holy Ghost, the spirit of the Lord is made manifest to men on earth. The Holy Ghost is a revealer of truth, a comforter, a sanctifier, and gives us personal assurance of the existence of God. In short the gift of the Holy Ghost is essential for the salvation and progression of mankind. Without the gift of the Holy Ghost, you cannot be saved in the kingdom of heaven. Through the gift of the Holy Ghost, you receive line upon line, precept upon precept. Here a little and there a little until eventually you receive a fullness of truth and glory. Without it you cannot receive these things. The good news is that it is free for all to receive by simply believing in God and his Son Jesus Christ to the point of repenting and seeking after it from those who have the authority to give it to you. The Aaronic priesthood was restored to Joseph Smith by John the Baptist. The Melchizedek priesthood was restored to Joseph Smith by Peter, James, and John. The auhority to bestow the gift is in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

[Cerebrum123]

I want to go back to OC's quote of Joseph Smith that the difference between our faith and others is the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost. The gift of the Holy Ghost bring justification and sanctification to the repentant sinner. Without it one cannot be sanctified by the spirit. The gift of the Holy Ghost can only be had through the laying on of hands of one having true authority from God. In other words the priesthood. Priesthood power is a higher manifestation of the Holy Ghost. Without the gift of the Holy Ghost, one cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The gift of the Holy Ghost teaches one of the peaceable things of the kingdom. It is through the Holy Ghost that inspiration and revelation are received. It is a gift to those that believe and are baptized by one having authority. Through the gift of the Holy Ghost, the spirit of the Lord is made manifest to men on earth. The Holy Ghost is a revealer of truth, a comforter, a sanctifier, and gives us personal assurance of the existence of God. In short the gift of the Holy Ghost is essential for the salvation and progression of mankind. Without the gift of the Holy Ghost, you cannot be saved in the kingdom of heaven. Through the gift of the Holy Ghost, you receive line upon line, precept upon precept. Here a little and there a little until eventually you receive a fullness of truth and glory. Without it you cannot receive these things. The good news is that it is free for all to receive by simply believing in God and his Son Jesus Christ to the point of repenting and seeking after it from those who have the authority to give it to you. The Aaronic priesthood was restored to Joseph Smith by John the Baptist. The Melchizedek priesthood was restored to Joseph Smith by Peter, James, and John. The auhority to bestow the gift is in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The Aaronic priesthood ended a LONG time ago, and can only be entered into by descendants of Aaron. Also, Jesus NEVER mentioned this type of priesthood, and it was never necessary for ANYTHING among Christians. Also, the Holy Ghost is in ALL of those who have accepted Christ as their savior, and due to things like you described above(about how the laying on of hands is a necessity) would make it so that a great deal of people would NEVER be able to receive salvation in this way(RSD is one disease that would make the laying on of hands pretty much impossible). This is basically a focusing on rituals and a legalistic type deal, which is something that Jesus was AGAINST. Maybe you should take a really close look at the Bible, and then a look at what LDS doctrine and teachings are(they are WORLDS apart).

[jethrorlz]

I want to go back to OC's quote of Joseph Smith that the difference between our faith and others is the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost. The gift of the Holy Ghost bring justification and sanctification to the repentant sinner. Without it one cannot be sanctified by the spirit. The gift of the Holy Ghost can only be had through the laying on of hands of one having true authority from God. In other words the priesthood. Priesthood power is a higher manifestation of the Holy Ghost. Without the gift of the Holy Ghost, one cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The gift of the Holy Ghost teaches one of the peaceable things of the kingdom. It is through the Holy Ghost that inspiration and revelation are received. It is a gift to those that believe and are baptized by one having authority. Through the gift of the Holy Ghost, the spirit of the Lord is made manifest to men on earth. The Holy Ghost is a revealer of truth, a comforter, a sanctifier, and gives us personal assurance of the existence of God. In short the gift of the Holy Ghost is essential for the salvation and progression of mankind. Without the gift of the Holy Ghost, you cannot be saved in the kingdom of heaven. Through the gift of the Holy Ghost, you receive line upon line, precept upon precept. Here a little and there a little until eventually you receive a fullness of truth and glory. Without it you cannot receive these things. The good news is that it is free for all to receive by simply believing in God and his Son Jesus Christ to the point of repenting and seeking after it from those who have the authority to give it to you. The Aaronic priesthood was restored to Joseph Smith by John the Baptist. The Melchizedek priesthood was restored to Joseph Smith by Peter, James, and John. The auhority to bestow the gift is in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

If it is necessary for the Holy Ghost to be received by the laying of hands, how did he come into the first recipient? How can LDS accept both the Bible and the LDS doctrines when they contradict each other? As Cerebrum123 had mentioned, Jesus never spoke of such teachings, nor did any other New Testament author.

[OtherCheek]

If it is necessary for the Holy Ghost to be received by the laying of hands, how did he come into the first recipient? How can LDS accept both the Bible and the LDS doctrines when they contradict each other? As Cerebrum123 had mentioned, Jesus never spoke of such teachings, nor did any other New Testament author.

The Holy Ghost may come upon a person in a temporary way to convince truth, but the GIFT of the Holy Ghost is for the constant companionship of the Comforter.

[pancreasman]

The Holy Ghost may come upon a person in a temporary way to convince truth, but the GIFT of the Holy Ghost is for the constant companionship of the Comforter.

Just to clarify, am I reading 141 correctly? He seems to be saying that only Mormons have the gift of the Holy Spirit since only the LDS lineage has an authentic priestly line. Is that correct? Do you think no other Christians have the gift of the Holy Spirit?

[OtherCheek]

Just to clarify, am I reading 141 correctly? He seems to be saying that only Mormons have the gift of the Holy Spirit since only the LDS lineage has an authentic priestly line. Is that correct? Do you think no other Christians have the gift of the Holy Spirit?

From the LDS Bible Dictionary:

The Holy Ghost is manifested to men on the earth both as the power of the Holy Ghost and as the gift of the Holy Ghost. The power can come upon one before baptism, and is the convincing witness that the gospel is true. It gives one a testimony of Jesus Christ and of his work and the work of his servants upon the earth. The gift can come only after proper and authorized baptism, and is conferred by the laying on of hands, as in Acts 8:12–25 and Moroni 2:1–3. The gift of the Holy Ghost is the right to have, whenever one is worthy, the companionship of the Holy Ghost. More powerful than that which is available before baptism, it acts as a cleansing agent to purify a person and sanctify him from all sin. Thus it is often spoken of as “fire” (Matt. 3:11; 2 Ne. 31:17; D&C 19:31). The manifestation on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) was the gift of the Holy Ghost that came upon the Twelve, without which they were not ready for their ministries to the world.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/hol...g=eng&letter=h

[pancreasman]

From the LDS Bible Dictionary:

The Holy Ghost is manifested to men on the earth both as the power of the Holy Ghost and as the gift of the Holy Ghost. The power can come upon one before baptism, and is the convincing witness that the gospel is true. It gives one a testimony of Jesus Christ and of his work and the work of his servants upon the earth. The gift can come only after proper and authorized baptism, and is conferred by the laying on of hands, as in Acts 8:12–25 and Moroni 2:1–3. The gift of the Holy Ghost is the right to have, whenever one is worthy, the companionship of the Holy Ghost. More powerful than that which is available before baptism, it acts as a cleansing agent to purify a person and sanctify him from all sin. Thus it is often spoken of as “fire” (Matt. 3:11; 2 Ne. 31:17; D&C 19:31). The manifestation on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) was the gift of the Holy Ghost that came upon the Twelve, without which they were not ready for their ministries to the world.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/hol...g=eng&letter=h

So I was right. You guys believe that Christians in other denominations don't have the gift of the Holy Spirit because they haven't had an 'authorized' baptism. That's a pretty startling claim to me. Not even Baptists say that about other Christians.

[nrajeff]

So I was right.

Yes, as long as you understand how we define the term "THE Gift of the Holy Ghost."

You guys believe that Christians in other denominations don't have the gift of the Holy Spirit because they haven't had an 'authorized' baptism.

As far as being entitled to be eligible to have the HS's influence/instruction/edification guiding a person constantly (as long as the person keeps himself worthy of the gift) goes, yes. We believe that it's one of the benefits of being baptized the right way by the right people.

But we believe that anyone, regardless of denomination, religion, or baptism status, is able to be influenced on occasion by the Holy Spirit.

That's a pretty startling claim to me. Not even Baptists say that about other Christians.

True. But then, Baptists don't recognize all Christians as actually BEING Christians....

[Cerebrum123]

Yes, as long as you understand how we define the term "THE Gift of the Holy Ghost."


As far as being entitled to be eligible to have the HS's influence/instruction/edification guiding a person constantly (as long as the person keeps himself worthy of the gift) goes, yes. We believe that it's one of the benefits of being baptized the right way by the right people.

But we believe that anyone, regardless of denomination, religion, or baptism status, is able to be influenced on occasion by the Holy Spirit.


True. But then, Baptists don't recognize all Christians as actually BEING Christians....

Well, LDS don't worship the same Jesus or the same God the Father, or the same Holy Spirit, so no, they are not Christians(at least not if they believe all of the LDS doctrine anyway), because the do not believe in the true Christ. Also, since all other Christians are supposed to be "apostate" why should it bother you what we think about LDS? Joseph Smith did pretty much everything he could to separate the LDS from all other Christians, so why are modern LDS so eager to act like they are just mainstream Christians, with a few books added in?

[jethrorlz]

From the LDS Bible Dictionary:

The Holy Ghost is manifested to men on the earth both as the power of the Holy Ghost and as the gift of the Holy Ghost. The power can come upon one before baptism, and is the convincing witness that the gospel is true. It gives one a testimony of Jesus Christ and of his work and the work of his servants upon the earth. The gift can come only after proper and authorized baptism, and is conferred by the laying on of hands, as in Acts 8:12–25 and Moroni 2:1–3. The gift of the Holy Ghost is the right to have, whenever one is worthy, the companionship of the Holy Ghost. More powerful than that which is available before baptism, it acts as a cleansing agent to purify a person and sanctify him from all sin. Thus it is often spoken of as “fire” (Matt. 3:11; 2 Ne. 31:17; D&C 19:31). The manifestation on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) was the gift of the Holy Ghost that came upon the Twelve, without which they were not ready for their ministries to the world.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/hol...g=eng&letter=h

Couple problems. 1.) The Book of Mormon is supposed to be a completion of the Bible yet this supposed completion contradicts the Bible. In Acts 10 when the Gentiles received the Holy Spirit/Ghost, they were baptized after they received the Spirit, not before. 2.) LDS claims that through Joseph Smith the priesthood was restored. PROBLEM - The book of Hebrews explains how the priesthood was inadequate and Jesus Christ is our high priest forever - He is our mediator and we receive Truth and revelation from Him through his word the Holy Bible. There was a reason why the priesthood was done away with - it is no longer needed now that Jesus Christ sits at the right hand of God the Father.

[OtherCheek]

Couple problems. 1.) The Book of Mormon is supposed to be a completion of the Bible yet this supposed completion contradicts the Bible.

I've never heard that "completion of the Bible" phrase before. It's wrong. The BoM is a witness of a 2nd nation that Jesus is the Christ.

In Acts 10 when the Gentiles received the Holy Spirit/Ghost, they were baptized after they received the Spirit, not before.

The "GIFT" of the Holy Ghost is only conferred by the laying on of hands by one who has authority. The "influence" can be felt prior to this, but that is not the same as the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

2.) LDS claims that through Joseph Smith the priesthood was restored. PROBLEM - The book of Hebrews explains how the priesthood was inadequate and Jesus Christ is our high priest forever - He is our mediator and we receive Truth and revelation from Him through his word the Holy Bible. There was a reason why the priesthood was done away with - it is no longer needed now that Jesus Christ sits at the right hand of God the Father.

Jesus is THE Great High Priest. But, it is necessary that the authority to act in His name be on the earth. It was taken with the apostasy, and so it became necessary to be restored.

[OtherCheek]

Well, LDS don't worship the same Jesus or the same God the Father, or the same Holy Spirit, so no, they are not Christians(at least not if they believe all of the LDS doctrine anyway), because the do not believe in the true Christ. Also, since all other Christians are supposed to be "apostate" why should it bother you what we think about LDS? Joseph Smith did pretty much everything he could to separate the LDS from all other Christians, so why are modern LDS so eager to act like they are just mainstream Christians, with a few books added in?

Maybe we need to come up with a better term. Call us "Saints under Jesus Christ" and then you can have exclusive claim to the term "Christian."

[jethrorlz]

Maybe we need to come up with a better term. Call us "Saints under Jesus Christ" and then you can have exclusive claim to the term "Christian."

What does it mean to be a Saint or a Christian? If it means following the teachings of Jesus Christ, then either LDS is right or traditional Christianity is right, not both. One of us has to be wrong. We must, as objectively as possible look at the Truth claims of each religion and follow the evidence. Look at each one historically and philosophically. Historically is there evidence to back up what is claimed in the BoM or the Bible? Do the teachings of the doctrines contradict one another? Again, you must follow where the evidence leads, you must follow Truth.