Open theism and Jesus's prediction of Judas's betrayal

[RBerman]

Would you agree with this statement, "God loves His enemies"? I am sorry if this comes off as too reductionistic or offensive, I am honestly interested. Don't feel obligated to answer if you prefer not to.

That is a great question, mainly because in order to answer it we have to first discuss what God's love is and does. A short answer would indeed be reductionistic, so I'll give a slightly longer answer.

Western society sees love as a general feeling of attachment or benevolence. Some people project their understanding of "love" onto God in such a way that "a loving God would never send anyone to Hell" for instance. So if I tell such a person that "God loves his enemies" I have communicated falsely to him that God does not send his enemies to Hell.

I do believe that God loves his enemies, in the sense that God loves himself above all things (else He would be an idolater), and humans are God's image-bearers, albeit broken ones. He loves us because he loves himself. He also provides common grace even to his enemies, allowing them to experience pleasures in this life for a time. Yet his enemies respond to those pleasures with further rebellion against Him, so that even the good things end up multiplying the offense of their sin, and apparently the eventual punishment as well.

So yes, God loves his enemies. But he also hates them for their sin, and He will pour out his wrath on them, except for those enemies he has graciously chosen to adopt as his children and change into vessels of his grace and glory. God does not love all his enemies in that redeeming way.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Maybe. I can't even parse "definitive of God."
I'm not one to rank God's attributes (love, holiness, etc.) against each other.

No need to do either one in the Apophatic Theology of the Fathers of the Church.

When God reveals Himself to man, He does so by CONDESCENSION...
Hence there is no difference between God's wrath and God's love to GOD...
[And even that is a chancey statement, for we simply do not KNOW...
The closest we have is John's witness: "God Love IS..."
And this witness is reflected in the experience of the Fathers...
But to us on earth, there is every difference...
And the difference is attributed to our condition of soul...
And to the Love of God working in it for His good pleasure...
By this understanding, Heaven and hell are one and the same...
Christ IS the Lake of Fire for the unrepentant lovers of evils...
And Christ IS eternal Joy for those who love Him...
For those who have not known or heard of Him,
The love of Christ is the love of truth and one's fellow man in actions...

You see, God is totally OTHER THAN His creation...
We, being created, and created in His Image,
Are in a unique position in creation...
And we bear responsibility in it...
If we embrace evil in our chosen actions
The Lake of Fire will be our chosen home...
And if we embrace love and truth in martyrdom
The eternal Joy of Christ is ours even now...

That is what is meant when the Gospel of Christ is proclaimed:
REPENT! [eg enter into self-martyrdom]
BECAUSE THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS (now) AT HAND...
Indeed, it is suffering violence [Christ was crucified]
And the violent are TAKING it by force...
"Be angry and do not sin..."
"Weep on your bed for your thoughts of the day..."
"Take up your own cross each day..."
Follow Christ who was crucified on the Cross...
You cannot do anything without Christ...
His killers could not blink without Christ...
Even while they were nailing him to the wood...

God bless you...

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Some people project their understanding of "love" onto God in such a way that... God loves himself above all things

There is no way to avoid yourself the anthropomorphism of which you accuse others...

Self-love is not God's love...

Arsenios

[RBerman]

There is no way to avoid yourself the anthropomorphism of which you accuse others.

We do indeed see through the glass darkly for now.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

We do indeed see through the glass darkly for now.

Indeed, which is why the apophatic theology of the Holy Fathers is so critical for understanding the Faith... For us to say that God is offended and angry is not definitive of God, but of the condescension of God for our fallen understanding's sake... God is known, and eternal Life is imparted, in Spirit and in Truth, in an encounter with the Living God, for the sake of which the Church disciples the faithful...

We do not teach about God except His Love and mercy and Grace and UN-knowability to man... The only things we can say are UN's and IM's [ unbegotten, immortal, and on and on...] And by these the privative is not privative, but denotes transcendence and authorship, for He is not limited, but is the source of limitation and non-limitation both, and so forth... And these are not humanly understandable...

But God IS Love, and this is the universal witness of the Fathers, and that Love is the source of the creation of the cosmos - The Power of which brings all into existence from nothing... And we cannot grasp that either... Human categories cannot contain anything of God... They are but descriptions of God's revealing of Himself to some holy ones, and they tell us, such as Moses, and Peter and Paul...

Arsenios

[RBerman]

Indeed, which is why the apophatic theology of the Holy Fathers is so critical for understanding the Faith... For us to say that God is offended and angry is not definitive of God, but of the condescension of God for our fallen understanding's sake... God is known, and eternal Life is imparted, in Spirit and in Truth, in an encounter with the Living God, for the sake of which the Church disciples the faithful...

We do not teach about God except His Love and mercy and Grace and UN-knowability to man... The only things we can say are UN's and IM's [ unbegotten, immortal, and on and on...] And by these the privative is not privative, but denotes transcendence and authorship, for He is not limited, but is the source of limitation and non-limitation both, and so forth... And these are not humanly understandable...

But God IS Love, and this is the universal witness of the Fathers, and that Love is the source of the creation of the cosmos - The Power of which brings all into existence from nothing... And we cannot grasp that either... Human categories cannot contain anything of God... They are but descriptions of God's revealing of Himself to some holy ones, and they tell us, such as Moses, and Peter and Paul...

Arsenios

So you really pick and choose what elements of God you're willing to think about. When it comes to his love and mercy and grace, you say all kinds of things. But when it comes to his wrath, sudddenly God becomes the Unknowable Other. In other words, you make God in your own image, emphasizing the aspects that are comfortable to you, and downplaying the others. Whereas I want to equally emphasize his wrath and his love, simply because that's how God reveals himself to us in Scripture.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

So you really pick and choose what elements of God you're willing to think about. When it comes to his love and mercy and grace, you say all kinds of things. But when it comes to his wrath, sudddenly God becomes the Unknowable Other.

We simply understand all these as operations/energies of God, and not as His Essence... When you encounter God as Love and apprehend the vast power of that Love, you will then know the relation between His love and what we call His wrath, how they are one and the same...

But beyond that, even this Love which God IS, is only known by us AS an energy and operation of Him... The Essence of God is still not knowable to us, nor can it be... To SAY that God IS Love is not to KNOW [eg be one with] the Love that God IS in His Essence, but only, in a miniscule way, to KNOW this Love in His Energies... It is an important distinction... The miniscule way in which we can KNOW God's Love IS, for us, Eternal Life, you see... But for us to partake, even in the smallest degree possible, even a billionth of a percent of but one atom in one molecule of one cell of our bodies for a billionth of a nanosecond, we would, on the Apophatic understanding of God, then BE God, and this we are NOT...

We only apprehend the Uncreated God in His Uncreated Energies... It is these that create creation, including us, and in their Light, we see Light, as we sing... Indeed, it is these that give us eternal Life... IF we should become one with God in them... This is where we "put on Christ"... And the process of acquiring this Grace from God is our repentance working in God's Mercy, because His Mercy IS His Grace...

So that it is hard for you to sustain your charge that we make up our own God in our image when we so clearly hold Him to be unknowable in His Essence, and only a tiny bit known, and this not by the human intellect, but ontological knowledge of oneness with Him in His Uncreated Energies, for our salvation... For it is in this that we attain to the likeness of the Image in which we were created...

I want to equally emphasize his wrath and his love, simply because that's how God reveals himself to us in Scripture.

Nowhere in Scripture dies it say "God Wrath IS..." But John DOES say: "God Love IS..." Your "equal emphasis" ignores this Scriptural fact... And by your NOT understanding God's wrath as a condescension to the fallen human condition you have no way to resolve your failure to account for your Scriptural confliction...

God IS Love...
God IS NOT wrath...
The wrath of God is our experience of turning away from God...
IF you turn away from God, His Love will BURN YOU...
Your "equal emphasis" misses the mark...
And God does not reveal Himself equally in both in Scripture...
As you have just been shown...

Arsenios

[RBerman]

I can tell that argument seems persuasive to you, George, but "God's love will burn you if you turn away from it" is not a statement that can be defended either from Scripture or reason.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

I can tell that argument seems persuasive to you, George, but "God's love will burn you if you turn away from it" is not a statement that can be defended either from Scripture or reason.

It follows from
1: God IS Love...
2: God punishes the wicked (in the Lake of Fire)...

But reasoning our own way from the words of Scripture is not the way of Faith,
But is instead the way of the fallen human intellect...

Knowing God is eternal Life...
THAT knowledge is not intellectual...
It is NOT arrived at by reasoning from Scripture...
It DOES inform the intellect...

The WAY of the Faith is the Gospel of Jesus Christ...
And THAT Gospel's first word is: "BE YE REPENTING" [metanoiete]

I do not believe "that argument" because it "seems persuasive" -
I am but giving what the Church has been teaching from the beginnings...

The Church is the ground and the pillar of Truth...
Against which the Gates of Hell shall not prevail...

And we have the blood of Her Martyrs as our witnesses...
And the Love of Christ...

The Love of God IS the Lake of Fire...
Torment for those who hate God...

Arsenios

[RBerman]

It follows from
1: God IS Love...
2: God punishes the wicked (in the Lake of Fire)...

No, it does not.

[micah719]

Here's an explanation of what it means to be kind to one's enemies:

Rom 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

As I said before, I'm ecstatic that there is evidence The Lord has elected me...This doesn't give me cause ot look down on others, and when the temptation to do so comes it is always cut short by a reminder of the real state of things. My state of mind is that of the taxcollector:

Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

From yxboom:

How do you justify hating those who hate God?

....was answered succinctly by the Psalm Mr Berman quoted:

Psa 139:17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
Psa 139:18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.
Psa 139:19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.
Psa 139:20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.
Psa 139:21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
Psa 139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
Psa 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
Psa 139:24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

As I said earlier, I can't know in this life absolutely whether someone is permanently reprobate...so for now I am bound to be merciful and remember the only distinction is grace. It does not mean however that I am to refrain from opposing them when they preach falsehood:

Tit 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
Tit 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
Tit 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
Tit 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

Not that I consider myself a bishop, but they are leaders by example and the best standard to follow is given in Scripture, so whether or not I know a real God-appointed bishop I can look to The Bible and obey it.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
2Ti 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Php 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
2Th 3:7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
2Th 3:8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
2Th 3:9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

Again from yxboom:

How do you think this quote should affect the discussion?

The discussion seems to be revolving around judas' freedom of action and responsability vs The Lord's sovereignty and foreknowledge. Consider this:

1Co 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
1Co 2:3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Co 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Remember this:

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Would you agree with this statement, "God loves His enemies"?

Considering these next few quotes, it would seem He loves some of His enemies enough to redeem them. The ones He does not redeem, will not be considered to be loved as they are tormented throughout eternity. However, in this life, He tolerates them with patience and showers them with blessings and patience, but these things only serve to increase their guilt.

Jer 31:3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Psa 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psa 5:6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Psa 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Job 21:1 But Job answered and said,
Job 21:2 Hear diligently my speech, and let this be your consolations.
Job 21:3 Suffer me that I may speak; and after that I have spoken, mock on.
Job 21:4 As for me, is my complaint to man? and if it were so, why should not my spirit be troubled?
Job 21:5 Mark me, and be astonished, and lay your hand upon your mouth.
Job 21:6 Even when I remember I am afraid, and trembling taketh hold on my flesh.
Job 21:7 Wherefore do the wicked live, become old, yea, are mighty in power?
Job 21:8 Their seed is established in their sight with them, and their offspring before their eyes.
Job 21:9 Their houses are safe from fear, neither is the rod of God upon them.
Job 21:10 Their bull gendereth, and faileth not; their cow calveth, and casteth not her calf.
Job 21:11 They send forth their little ones like a flock, and their children dance.
Job 21:12 They take the timbrel and harp, and rejoice at the sound of the organ.
Job 21:13 They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to the grave.
Job 21:14 Therefore they say unto God, Depart from us; for we desire not the knowledge of thy ways.
Job 21:15 What is the Almighty, that we should serve him? and what profit should we have, if we pray unto him?
Job 21:16 Lo, their good is not in their hand: the counsel of the wicked is far from me.
Job 21:17 How oft is the candle of the wicked put out! and how oft cometh their destruction upon them! God distributeth sorrows in his anger.
Job 21:18 They are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth away.
Job 21:19 God layeth up his iniquity for his children: he rewardeth him, and he shall know it.
Job 21:20 His eyes shall see his destruction, and he shall drink of the wrath of the Almighty.
Job 21:21 For what pleasure hath he in his house after him, when the number of his months is cut off in the midst?
Job 21:22 Shall any teach God knowledge? seeing he judgeth those that are high.
Job 21:23 One dieth in his full strength, being wholly at ease and quiet.
Job 21:24 His breasts are full of milk, and his bones are moistened with marrow.
Job 21:25 And another dieth in the bitterness of his soul, and never eateth with pleasure.
Job 21:26 They shall lie down alike in the dust, and the worms shall cover them.
Job 21:27 Behold, I know your thoughts, and the devices which ye wrongfully imagine against me.
Job 21:28 For ye say, Where is the house of the prince? and where are the dwelling places of the wicked?
Job 21:29 Have ye not asked them that go by the way? and do ye not know their tokens,
Job 21:30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.
Job 21:31 Who shall declare his way to his face? and who shall repay him what he hath done?
Job 21:32 Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.
Job 21:33 The clods of the valley shall be sweet unto him, and every man shall draw after him, as there are innumerable before him.
Job 21:34 How then comfort ye me in vain, seeing in your answers there remaineth falsehood?

Mr Blaisdell:

Ever meet a Calvinist who did NOT think that HE is ONE of the ELECT?

Well, what would a calvinist be that thought he was a reprobate? That's no faith! A properly repentant calvinist fears he is not elect, but continues to examine himself and his faith and seeks Scriptural evidence and sets his hope on Scriptural promises of assurance, and is very careful not to base his hope on his "decision", or any of his other works. Find me an arminian/freewillist that considers himself saved (elect, there's no escaping that word, it's Biblical) on the basis of his own election, and you have a man on shifting sand bound for perdition; and if he considers himself not elect/not saved, but proclaims the anthropocentric "gospel" of decisionism, then he is self condemned already because he effectively says it'*s up to me and I haven't done it". Sounds like a fool.

Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

[yxboom]

Great wall of text, Batman!

Here's an explanation of what it means to be kind to one's enemies:

Rom 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

As I said before, I'm ecstatic that there is evidence The Lord has elected me...This doesn't give me cause ot look down on others, and when the temptation to do so comes it is always cut short by a reminder of the real state of things. My state of mind is that of the tax collector:

Judas had evidence He was elected, why do you think you are any different?

I would challenge your definition of being kind to one's enemies, that looks a lot more like loving one's enemies.

Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

From yxboom:

....was answered succinctly by the Psalm Mr Berman quoted:

Psa 139:17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
Psa 139:18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.
Psa 139:19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.
Psa 139:20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.
Psa 139:21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
Psa 139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
Psa 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
Psa 139:24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

As I said earlier, I can't know in this life absolutely whether someone is permanently reprobate...so for now I am bound to be merciful and remember the only distinction is grace. It does not mean however that I am to refrain from opposing them when they preach falsehood:

You are bound to mercy and grace? It reads as if you are saying you are forced to show love, is this accurate?

Being bound to mercy does not seem very consistent with the authors of the Psalms, shouldn't your righteous hatred align with the Psalmist that:

Psalm 137:8

O Babylon, you will be destroyed. Happy is the one who pays you back for what you have done to us. 9 Happy is the one who takes your babies and smashes them against the rocks!

Tit 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
Tit 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
Tit 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
Tit 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

Not that I consider myself a bishop, but they are leaders by example and the best standard to follow is given in Scripture, so whether or not I know a real God-appointed bishop I can look to The Bible and obey it.

Would it be accurate to say that bishops are self-sacrificial and loving?

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
2Ti 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Php 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
2Th 3:7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
2Th 3:8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
2Th 3:9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

Again from yxboom:


The discussion seems to be revolving around judas' freedom of action and responsability vs The Lord's sovereignty and foreknowledge. Consider this:

1Co 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
1Co 2:3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Co 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Remember this:

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

What gives you the impression I have not considered or remembered those verses? Is it purely based on my disagreement with your interpretation?

Considering these next few quotes, it would seem He loves some of His enemies enough to redeem them. The ones He does not redeem, will not be considered to be loved as they are tormented throughout eternity. However, in this life, He tolerates them with patience and showers them with blessings and patience, but these things only serve to increase their guilt.

Jer 31:3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Psa 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psa 5:6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Psa 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Job 21:1 But Job answered and said,
Job 21:2 Hear diligently my speech, and let this be your consolations.
Job 21:3 Suffer me that I may speak; and after that I have spoken, mock on.
Job 21:4 As for me, is my complaint to man? and if it were so, why should not my spirit be troubled?
Job 21:5 Mark me, and be astonished, and lay your hand upon your mouth.
Job 21:6 Even when I remember I am afraid, and trembling taketh hold on my flesh.
Job 21:7 Wherefore do the wicked live, become old, yea, are mighty in power?
Job 21:8 Their seed is established in their sight with them, and their offspring before their eyes.
Job 21:9 Their houses are safe from fear, neither is the rod of God upon them.
Job 21:10 Their bull gendereth, and faileth not; their cow calveth, and casteth not her calf.
Job 21:11 They send forth their little ones like a flock, and their children dance.
Job 21:12 They take the timbrel and harp, and rejoice at the sound of the organ.
Job 21:13 They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to the grave.
Job 21:14 Therefore they say unto God, Depart from us; for we desire not the knowledge of thy ways.
Job 21:15 What is the Almighty, that we should serve him? and what profit should we have, if we pray unto him?
Job 21:16 Lo, their good is not in their hand: the counsel of the wicked is far from me.
Job 21:17 How oft is the candle of the wicked put out! and how oft cometh their destruction upon them! God distributeth sorrows in his anger.
Job 21:18 They are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth away.
Job 21:19 God layeth up his iniquity for his children: he rewardeth him, and he shall know it.
Job 21:20 His eyes shall see his destruction, and he shall drink of the wrath of the Almighty.
Job 21:21 For what pleasure hath he in his house after him, when the number of his months is cut off in the midst?
Job 21:22 Shall any teach God knowledge? seeing he judgeth those that are high.
Job 21:23 One dieth in his full strength, being wholly at ease and quiet.
Job 21:24 His breasts are full of milk, and his bones are moistened with marrow.
Job 21:25 And another dieth in the bitterness of his soul, and never eateth with pleasure.
Job 21:26 They shall lie down alike in the dust, and the worms shall cover them.
Job 21:27 Behold, I know your thoughts, and the devices which ye wrongfully imagine against me.
Job 21:28 For ye say, Where is the house of the prince? and where are the dwelling places of the wicked?
Job 21:29 Have ye not asked them that go by the way? and do ye not know their tokens,
Job 21:30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.
Job 21:31 Who shall declare his way to his face? and who shall repay him what he hath done?
Job 21:32 Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.
Job 21:33 The clods of the valley shall be sweet unto him, and every man shall draw after him, as there are innumerable before him.
Job 21:34 How then comfort ye me in vain, seeing in your answers there remaineth falsehood?

God creates some beings that He hates and allows them to continue to exist, so He can torment them for eternity for being created. This is the God you see revealed in Christ becoming a man, suffering for His enemies and dying on the cross while saying, "Father forgive them."?

[Rdr. Arsenios]

God creates some beings that He hates
and allows them to continue to exist,
so He can torment them for eternity for being created.

Calvinists call this God's sovereignty, and ignore the Scripture that tells us that when creation was created, it was very good... And that man was created in God's Image, which is also very good...

This is the God you see revealed in Christ becoming a man,
suffering for His enemies
and dying on the cross
while saying,
"Father forgive them."?

They do not believe in this God -
They believe in the God of Love AND Hate...

But God IS Love...

John 3:16
outws gar hgaphsen o yeos ton kosmon
wste ton uion autou ton monogenh edwken
ina pas o pisteuwn eis auton Mh apolhtai
all exh zwhn aiwnion

For in this manner did God love the cosmos,
such that He gave His Son, the only-begotten,
in order that ANYONE believing in Him should not die,
but instead should be having Life eternal...
(my translation - very literal)

And this is the God that they insist is the God of Hate and love...

It is ONLY the Demons who are the haters...
And those obeying them...
Each of us must choose between love and hate...
God rewards accordingly...

For the Calvinist to proclaim that their God is the God of Hate,
With the exception of the few preselects He loves,
Is to call God a demon...

And we wonder why we are losing our children
From the churches to the world...
When this is the god we preach...
And then self-righteously, when challenged,
Erect a towering wall of proof texts to prove we are right...
And our children rightly close their ears...
And they close their minds...
And they vote with their feet...
And our church becomes an art gallery...
Or a cafe or restaurant...
Or a funeral parlor...
ANYTHING but a place where such doctrines are preached and heard...

And nothing will penetrate the armor of their error...
And I pray for them...
And I weep...
I grieve for them as Paul grieved for the Jews...

Arsenios

[yxboom]

It is ONLY the Demons who are the haters...
And those obeying them...
Each of us must choose between love and hate...
God rewards accordingly...

For the Calvinist to proclaim that their God is the God of Hate,
With the exception of the few preselects He loves,
Is to call God a demon...

Amen and amen, I cannot amen this enough. Not to single out my Calvinist brethren as I see this idea permeates western culture and Christianity. Within the pages of Scripture, Satan is the accuser, the liar, the one engulfed in hate and self-serving love. But so often within western Christianity, it is God who accuses, lies, hates and self-serves. This is so contrary to God revealing who He truly is when He disrobed and washed His disciples feet, walked the hill to calvary and laid down His life for His enemies. I am convinced that our God is far too beautiful and much too lovely to begin to express, but I will always keep trying.

[micah719]

Judas had evidence He was elected, why do you think you are any different?

What evidence did he display? The other disciples couldn't pick the fink when The Lord declared openly that one amongst them was about to betray The Lord...and perhaps Judas was low on the list of suspicion since they all trusted him enough to be treasurer. They all took to asking who it was, each even asking if he himself were the traitor. We have the benefit of hindsight from Scriptural revelation that Judas was the rat, and can examine his behaviour as recorded for us and spot some hints of the nastiness. For example, his reaction to the woman's use of a fortune in perfume in her worshiping The Lord and preparing Him for burial. While the doctrines of grace are visible throughout Scripture, it is only fully revealed in the NT...the inclusion of the gentiles in the atonement was a mystery. This revealed mystery is often not emphasised enough and leads to some bad doctrine and misinterpretation of key Scriptures, for example the arminian strawverse 1 Tim 2:4 and others. The Jews of the NT period recorded in The Bible thought they were all elect based on physical birth as descendants of Abraham and had to be taught that the reality was otherwise.

The differences between Judas and myself are significant. He was priviledged to be called out by The Lord in Person and was blessed to be with Him throughout His ministry when He walked among us. He got unvarnished undiluted doctrine straight from The Lord Himself, he was sent out by Him and was empowered by The Holy Spirit to work miracles alongside the other eleven (else they would have known Mr No-Fruit was the traitor). Nearly two thousand years later I have The Bible, a host of pseudo-bibles, a multitude of false teachers and false professors and more dodgy doctrines than would fill many libraries, yet the Scriptures shout loud in my ears what I am (a sinner), my just wages (death in hell forever) from The Holy Lord God Almighty, and that unless He has mercy upon me I am rightly doomed. Unlike Thomas, I haven't seen Him yet I beleive, and further, the particulars of my faith are in a minority even amongst those professing Christianity. I have confirmation of my internal state and struggles and great consolation from Scripture that I am not following fables nor have I lost my mind, though the world and the religious peacocks would like to have me think so. The Gospel truly is Good News to such a one as I, and the doctrines of grace a breath of sweet life, in contrast to the dead hypocrisy of the majority opinion so popular these days. No, God does not love everyone, but those that He does love He has saved to the uttermost and that by Himself. Part of hating those who hate God is the self-loathing that arises when I contemplate my own nature and how monstrous and vile my crimes against the all Holy purely Good almighty God are.

There is no such thing as "common" grace; grace is highly uncommon and precious. Permitting rebels to have a free hand in their actions and dealing patiently and leniently with them in this life is merely a precursor to the judgement which is so complete and righteous and terrible it should give us all pause to consider soberly just what our condition is. Please call it something else, just not "common" grace. Enough rope to hang ones self by would be more accurate.

This discussion thread is an attack on The Lord Himself because it denies His revelation of Himself and deceives sinners as to His nature and their position and liability. It also attacks soteriology because this is intimately and inseperably connected to Him, as His Name declares.

I would challenge your definition of being kind to one's enemies, that looks a lot more like loving one's enemies.

Seeing as how we humans do not know definitively whether a live person is or isn't elect, and our own guilt before The Lord, we are not in the position to mete out vengeance or favour. Being kind to an enemy may be part of The Lord's design to save that person in His own good time, or it may be part of the amassing of evidence for the day of sentencing where the unregenerate is finally condemned. We are commanded to be kind and loving, and that should be the end of it. THis is not a license to invent humanistic notions of the brotherhood of men or sentimental "love", it is not a loophole to avoid exercising Biblical judgement and action when confronted with false preachers and false doctrines.

You are bound to mercy and grace? It reads as if you are saying you are forced to show love, is this accurate?

Being bound to mercy does not seem very consistent with the authors of the Psalms, shouldn't your righteous hatred align with the Psalmist that:

The loud and clear repeated commands in Scripture for me to be humble and merciful and exercise grace and be kind are there because my fallen nature does not do these things naturally. Sure, unregenerates may give the appearance of such things but the motivation and exercise of it is not pure in God's sight and under proper Scriptural examination should be exposed for what they are....hypocrisy. If a brother in The Lord Jesus Christ is spreading or holding bad doctrine in opposition to Scripture, I am bound to speak out against it. The unregenerate will see this as an attack on his person, the regenerate will eventually hear and repent, if what I say is in accordance with Scripture. THe majority as being unregenerate will not repent and this is why one should be very wary of majority opinions. Don't follow a crowd to do evil. Once The Lord takes me to Him and completes that which He began and glorifies my body and removes the sinful flesh then I will be able to hate His enemies with perfect hatred. In this life I can only hate those conclusively proven to be unregenerate, such as a hitler or stalin or ghandi or judas who have been shown to be unregenerate in that they died unrepentant. Sorry, didn't mean to resort to argumentum ad hitlerum, strike that scoundrel's name from the text if you like. There are however some who even in this life are to be avoided, marked, opposed and not pitied on account of their brazen sin, even "brothers" that are not to be prayed for...reference 1 John 5:16.

Would it be accurate to say that bishops are self-sacrificial and loving?

If their self-sacrifice and loving is in accordance with Scripture, yes. Not if it is according to the world's notions of these things. Remember the devil himself and his servants appear as angels of light...they do not appear foully evil and the world runs after them because they look "good". Deception is the more dangerous the closer it looks like the genuine.

What gives you the impression I have not considered or remembered those verses? Is it purely based on my disagreement with your interpretation?

I believe I quoted those verses in an attempt to show that the whole trend of the discussion is ultimately futile, seeing as how Scripture shows unmistakeably that The Lord is sovereign, absolutely and irresistably. We know from Scripture that only those with ears to hear will actually hear, so it isn't for everyone. My reply and citing was probably not directed specifically to you, though I am fuzzy on this and haven't been following along every post and step of the way.

God creates some beings that He hates and allows them to continue to exist, so He can torment them for eternity for being created. This is the God you see revealed in Christ becoming a man, suffering for His enemies and dying on the cross while saying, "Father forgive them."?

He doesn't hate them and torment them for being created, but for their sins and stubbornness in rebellion. At this point please read The Lord'S prayer in John 17 for exactly who He died for and whom He is referring to that He beseeches His Father to forgive. As you see, the discussion is really about the atonement. What of the arminian postiion? A substitutionary propitiation that does not actually substitute or propitiate, a "god" that creates and tries to save while knowing he cannot save unless the will of man permits, yet tries to achieve what he knows is impossible. The Lord God of the Bible is not a frustrated God. The pernicious and blasphemous teaching of middle knowledge is clearly unScriptural because it denies omniscience. All of this is an attempt by fallen beings to justify themselves and set themselves up as gods...the serpent's lie in the garden is coming to fruition.

Calvinists call this God's sovereignty, and ignore the Scripture that tells us that when creation was created, it was very good... And that man was created in God's Image, which is also very good...

It WAS very good....but we fell, and are now in total depravity, not meaning we are as evil as we could and would like to be, but that all our faculties are corrupt. See Romans 7:18.

John 3:16 shows only those that DO believe in Him are saved, not that it is available to all indiscriminately. Unless a Divine work is done to regenerate the dead sinner, the spiritually dead WILL NOT believe. Inability does not mean unaccountability. Consider we are incapable of fulfilling the Divine Law on account of our sinfulness, but are held to account of each and every transgression of it.

And we wonder why we are losing our children
From the churches to the world...
When this is the god we preach...
And then self-righteously, when challenged,
Erect a towering wall of proof texts to prove we are right...
And our children rightly close their ears...
And they close their minds...
And they vote with their feet...
And our church becomes an art gallery...
Or a cafe or restaurant...
Or a funeral parlor...
ANYTHING but a place where such doctrines are preached and heard...

It is not the doctrines of grace that are at the root of this, it is the laodicean poison of the anthropocentric "gospel" that has done that. Btw, the church is not a building or an organisation, and The Lord never loses one of His sheep. That there are a profusion of apostates and goats pretending to be sheep is a sign of where we are on the prophetic timescale. Let the pagan cult buildings go to ruin or be converted to more honourable uses such as brothels, rather than houses of hypocrisy . The church is doing fine and always has, because The Lord builds it and guards it. The worldy manifestation of the counterfeit church is sickly, terminally ill, though a final rally before expiration is forecast.

Finally....The Lord reveals Himself to whom He wishes...and permits the rest to have their self-made idols, and to perish with them.