Open theism and Jesus's prediction of Judas's betrayal

[micah719]

Ok, I'll leave this reply on the trolley to make moving it easier.

Having come to know God as He reveals Himself in Scripture, how can one not love Him? He is thoroughly lovely and anyone hating Him is thoroughly hateful. The trouble is, I'm not completely sure of who they are, yet, and I'm conscious that my own love is less than it should be, as evidenced by my less than perfect obedience. However, I have His guarantee that He will complete that which He has begun, so at this time I can only remind myself of what I am, what He has done, and this all tempers my attitude to those who are putting themselves against Him. With some it easier than with others. Pearls before swine and all that, you know.

Ok, to get back on the rails, how does this quote affect the discussion of Judas' culpability?

Mar 14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

[yxboom]

Ok, I'll leave this reply on the trolley to make moving it easier.

Having come to know God as He reveals Himself in Scripture, how can one not love Him? He is thoroughly lovely and anyone hating Him is thoroughly hateful. The trouble is, I'm not completely sure of who they are, yet, and I'm conscious that my own love is less than it should be, as evidenced by my less than perfect obedience. However, I have His guarantee that He will complete that which He has begun, so at this time I can only remind myself of what I am, what He has done, and this all tempers my attitude to those who are putting themselves against Him. With some it easier than with others. Pearls before swine and all that, you know.

How do you justify hating those who hate God?

Ok, to get back on the rails, how does this quote affect the discussion of Judas' culpability?

Mar 14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

How do you think this quote should affect the discussion?

[Rdr. Arsenios]

The only difference between them an me is that
The Lord chose in Grace to have mercy on me,

I should imagine that you pray each night and day giving thanks to The Lord
That He chose you and NOT them in Grace to have mercy upon...

Luk_18:11
"God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men..."
(That you chose me and not them for your Grace...")

Ever meet a Calvinist who did NOT think that HE is ONE of the ELECT?

I sure did...

Not pretty...
Preacher's kid...
Now in recovery...

Arsenios

[lee_merrill]

In what way did I communicate that Jesus said anything that was other than true?

Well I misunderstood, sorry.

Judas was free to change his mind at any time, Jesus wasn't insecure with this possibility.

Well, I wonder then how this could be the case if (as it seems we agree here) 1) Jesus pointed Judas out as the betrayer and 2) what Jesus said was indeed true.

Blessings,
Lee

[yxboom]

Well I misunderstood, sorry.

I apologize if I miscommunicated.

Well, I wonder then how this could be the case if (as it seems we agree here) 1) Jesus pointed Judas out as the betrayer and 2) what Jesus said was indeed true.

Blessings,
Lee

We seem to be going back in a circle here. I understand my previous responses may not be sufficient for you, and I would be simply repeating myself. This does not seem to be the best way to progress, so maybe someone more intelligent would offer you a response that is more adequate for you... or not. I don't know.

[lee_merrill]

We seem to be going back in a circle here.

The TWeb 500? Alrighty, we'll leave it at that.

Blessings,
Lee

[RBerman]

How do you justify hating those who hate God?

That depends on how willing you are to systematize passages like this:

Psalm 139:19-22

Oh that you would slay the wicked, O God!
O men of blood, depart from me!
They speak against you with malicious intent;
your enemies take your name in vain.
Do I not hate those who hate you, O Lord?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against you?
I hate them with complete hatred;
I count them my enemies.

[yxboom]

That depends on how willing you are to systematize passages like this:

Psalm 139:19-22

Oh that you would slay the wicked, O God!
O men of blood, depart from me!
They speak against you with malicious intent;
your enemies take your name in vain.
Do I not hate those who hate you, O Lord?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against you?
I hate them with complete hatred;
I count them my enemies.

Thanks RB. The Psalms are great for justifying retributive justice.

Psalm 137:8

O Babylon, you will be destroyed.
Happy is the one who pays you back
for what you have done to us.
9 Happy is the one who takes your babies
and smashes them against the rocks!

[Rdr. Arsenios]

That depends on how willing you are to systematize passages like this:

Psalm 139:19-22

Oh that you would slay the wicked, O God!
O men of blood, depart from me!
They speak against you with malicious intent;
your enemies take your name in vain.
Do I not hate those who hate you, O Lord?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against you?
I hate them with complete hatred;
I count them my enemies.

Do you not interpret the OT in the Light of the New?

Eph_6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood,
but against principalities, against powers,
against the rulers of the darkness of this world,
against spiritual wickedness in high places.


Then was the type, now the fulfillment...

The deliverance of Israel out of Egypt's Land through the waters of the Red Sea...
Is for us Christians the deliverance from sin through the waters of Baptism into Christ...

So that we have Christ instructing us in Mat 5:44
But I say unto you,
Love your enemies,
bless them that curse you,
do good to them that hate you,
and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Before Christ, hating one's enemies was right...
After Christ, loving one's enemies is right...
After Christ, hating demonic powers and principalities is right...
After Christ, hating one's neighbor under their influence is wrong...

And in all this, the truth of David's words rings through,
For we are to hate those who hate God...
And these are the demonic powers of darkness...
People under their influence we are to love...

Arsenios

[yxboom]

Do you not interpret the OT in the Light of the New?

Eph_6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood,
but against principalities, against powers,
against the rulers of the darkness of this world,
against spiritual wickedness in high places.


Then was the type, now the fulfillment...

The deliverance of Israel out of Egypt's Land through the waters of the Red Sea...
Is for us Christians the deliverance from sin through the waters of Baptism into Christ...

So that we have Christ instructing us in Mat 5:44
But I say unto you,
Love your enemies,
bless them that curse you,
do good to them that hate you,
and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Before Christ, hating one's enemies was right...
After Christ, loving one's enemies is right...
After Christ, hating demonic powers and principalities is right...
After Christ, hating one's neighbor under their influence is wrong...

And in all this, the truth of David's words rings through,
For we are to hate those who hate God...
And these are the demonic powers of darkness...
People under their influence we are to love...

Arsenios

Amen, the only part I would take issue with is:

Before Christ, hating one's enemies was right...

But that is outside of the scope of this thread, anyway well said.

[RBerman]

Do you not interpret the OT in the Light of the New?

Eph_6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood,
but against principalities, against powers,
against the rulers of the darkness of this world,
against spiritual wickedness in high places.


Then was the type, now the fulfillment...

The deliverance of Israel out of Egypt's Land through the waters of the Red Sea...
Is for us Christians the deliverance from sin through the waters of Baptism into Christ...

So that we have Christ instructing us in Mat 5:44
But I say unto you,
Love your enemies,
bless them that curse you,
do good to them that hate you,
and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Before Christ, hating one's enemies was right...
After Christ, loving one's enemies is right...
After Christ, hating demonic powers and principalities is right...
After Christ, hating one's neighbor under their influence is wrong...

And in all this, the truth of David's words rings through,
For we are to hate those who hate God...
And these are the demonic powers of darkness...
People under their influence we are to love...

Arsenios

This section of Psalm 139 is not about "hating our enemies" as in "people who are mean to us" in the way that Jesus talks about in Matthew 5. It's about hating God's enemies. Mind you, Ephesians 2 also talks about how we too were once enemies from God, estranged from "the commonwealth of Israel" but now brought near to God through faith in Christ. Certainly I would never suggest a simplistic doctrine along the lines of "We should be unkind to blasphemers, because they deserve it." But "God hates the sin but loves the sinner" is equally reductionistic and doesn't allow for the variety of ways in which God's love and wrath are portayed in Scripture. I know you're not big on giving a place for God's wrath in general, and our disagreement about that spills out into discussions like this one.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Amen, the only part I would take issue with is:

Before Christ, hating one's enemies was right...

But that is outside of the scope of this thread, anyway well said.

On second thought, I would probably agree with you...

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

"God hates the sin but loves the sinner" is equally reductionistic and doesn't allow for the variety of ways in which God's love and wrath are portrayed in Scripture. I know you're not big on giving a place for God's wrath in general, and our disagreement about that spills out into discussions like this one.

Yes, the difference is between apophatic and cataphatic theologies... For you, God's wrath is definitive of God, and for us, nothing is definitive of God...

Arsenios

[RBerman]

Yes, the difference is between apophatic and cataphatic theologies... For you, God's wrath is definitive of God, and for us, nothing is definitive of God.

Maybe. I can't even parse "definitive of God." I'm not one to rank God's attributes (love, holiness, etc.) against each other.

[yxboom]

Maybe. I can't even parse "definitive of God." I'm not one to rank God's attributes (love, holiness, etc.) against each other.

Would you agree with this statement, "God loves His enemies"?

I am sorry if this comes off as too reductionistic or offensive, I am honestly interested. Don't feel obligated to answer if you prefer not to.